The Michael Irvin Hall of Fame Ceremony

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by Brian, Feb 5, 2007.

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  1. oochymp

    oochymp Camp Fodder

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    I personally think wins and losses are overrated for judging pitchers, too much goes into a game, as an example, if a pitcher throws a one-hitter but that hit turns out to be a HR and the team loses 1-0, the pitcher gets a loss because his team couldn't hit, wheras if a pitcher allows 15 runs but his team wins 16-15, he gets credited with a win, but which of those two pitchers would you rather have on your team?
    #11
  2. PhiSlammaJamma

    PhiSlammaJamma Yao

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    In Nolan Ryans worst year at 8-16, he finished 5th in the cy young consideration. This is no joke. And that tells you all you need to know right there. The dude pitched for some terrible teams. One year, the leading hr guy on his team had 9 hrs. He did all he could do.

    When you look at Nolan's career, it is remarkable. And will likely never be repeated. I would put him in the top 5 pitchers of all time. He finished in the MVP and CY Young voting 15 times. I won't go over the stats and the records, cause you can't even cover them all, but he struck out three generations of the same family. That is remarkable.

    Here is a three year run:
    His best year: 21 wins, 383 k, 2.87 era, 26 CG, 4 SHO.

    The year before: 9 SHO, won 19 games, 2.28 era, 329 k, 20 CG

    The year after: 22 wins, 367k, 2.89 era, 26 CG

    Sickest numbers ever recorded.
    #12
  3. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    All i know is this..

    Both troy aikman and micheal irvin need to bend down and kiss emmiit smith's butt because without him they may not be there.

    Emmitt was the straw along with that awesome offensive line. Aikman and irvin were good players but not HOF good..
    #13
  4. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    Ryan top 5 alltime?

    What are you smoking pal? Better than cy young? Christie mathewson, walter johnson? No way.

    I'm 48 years old and i have personally seen at least 10-12 better starting pitchers. Roger clemens for one, randy johnson is another to name current guys. No way he was better than bob gibson and tom seaver was also better. Nolan's career ERA is mediocre, 3.57.

    Despite pitching most of their games in today's home run happy enviroment clemens career ERA is still only 3.10 and johnson's 3.22 and maddox's 3.07. All better ptichers in my book...

    I frankly don't think nolan ryan is in the same league as koufax. Not even worth debate..

    If nolan ryan is hall material he is more in the league with a guy like fergie jenkins or Juan Marichal not even top ten from 1970-1990.

    The notion that he played for bad teams is bullcrap. He played on 15 teams with winning records and 12 with losing records.

    Rolltide knows baseball..
    #14
  5. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    OOch...

    When a pitcher has 600 decisions for his career it all is going to even out. He is going to have 1-0 losses but also a fair share of 8-7 wins or a non decision when the pitcher gets bombed but his team comes back to tie the game. A great pitcher is out there to win and should win 3 games out of 5.

    Ryan won just 52.5% of his decisions. Fergie jenkins won 55% and he played for the cubs!
    #15
  6. Brian

    Brian Big Fan

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    Forget % of decisions, if you're simply going to rate a pitcher based on % of games won, a better stat is % of starts won. IMO, anyone who wins 50% of his starts is a great pitcher. It's only one factor, but a significant one. Interesting if nothing else.

    That said, Ryan only won 38% of his starts, but that doesn't mean I don't think he was a great pitcher.....because I do. Not top 5, but still great.

    Fergie Jenkins won 48% of his starts
    Tom Seaver 48%
    Jim Palmer 51%
    Randy Johnson 51%
    Roger Clemens 51%
    Sandy Koufax 53%
    Ron Guidry 53%
    #16
  7. PhiSlammaJamma

    PhiSlammaJamma Yao

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    Nolan Ryan's career era is 3.19.
    You just blew out your whole argument. Maybe Rolltide doesn't know as much as he thought, lol.

    Koufax, unfortunately, was never able to prove his longevity. He broke down. As good as he was, it was only for a short run, and in baseball, that just doesn't cut it. He will always be a step below. Just like Kirby Puckett. Unfortunate, but he cannot be in the top 10 because he couldn't handle the long haul.

    Nolan is in my top 5. I never said he was better than all those pitchers. Off all those you listed Nolan Ryan leads them ALL in k/9, h/9, and BAA. Which means he leads in 3 out of the top 8 categories pitchers consider important (whip, wins, era, hits, baa, k, sho, cg) Yes. That is 3 out of 8. And not only that, but he is way ahead of everyone in those categories. Nobody is even remotely close. I didn't even include no hitters, which we all know pitchers consider as their most important achievement, and in which Nolan Ryan leads by a wide margin once again.
    #17
  8. rcarie

    rcarie Tac Head

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    If Nolan Ryan was in his prime today he'd be playing for the Yankees making 20mil a year and that winnig percentage would be much higher.... He was without quesiton on of the best that has ever played. You can look at his SO percentages and no hitters and figure that out. Is he top 5?? Arguable...
    #18
  9. Blazing Arrow

    Blazing Arrow The 12th man

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    The noogie to Robin Ventura alone should bump him up a few spots.
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  10. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    Strike outs don't mean anything..

    Numerous pitchers won very consistently without getting a lot of strike outs. It's meaningless..

    The best way to look at strike outs is in relation to walks and hit batters. When you look at it that way ryan sucks compared to many other top pitchers.

    K/BB+HBP...averages over typical 162 game season..

    Ryan---245/126=1.94

    Seaver-- 189/75=2.52

    Gibson--209-95=2.20

    Maddox--159-53=3.00

    Clemens--226-83=2.72

    What good is it to strike out more batters when you are also walking and hitting more batters giving them a free pass on base at an even higher rate?

    Greg maddox is much more consistent than ryan was and that is why he won 49% of every game he appeared in vs 38% for ryan. The stat brian used was a damning as any to prove this guy is no where near the 10th best pitcher all time much less top 5.. That's silly!
    #20
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