How an Uncapped Season Affects the Tennessee Titans

In 2 days Fisher doesn't make your list.

(you also left off Jim Fassell)

Dungy also built the Bucs into a contender so he deserves credit for that. Dungy made the playoffs 11 of 13 years coaching. Fisher's only made the playoffs 6 of 16 years in comparison, and yeah he gets some slack for the moving years, but that excuse is long gone.

I do agree about Manning.

 

Um...

Fisher had to build this team twice. The first time after he inherited it and the second after the salary cap purge. Dungy didn't have to build two teams, he had to build one team and improve one defense and he's also had the GREAT benefit of Bill Polian as team president and draft/personel guru. Dungy's playoff record is nothing to write home about...especially considering he had the NFL's MVP for 3 of those seasons who's also a top 10 Hall of Fame QB.

Gut

 

I don't particularly disagree on any point, but Dungy went to the playoffs 10 straight years with 2 teams. He built up the freakin' BUCS! Doesn't seem like so much now, but that's like if Schwartz turns the Lions into a perennial playoff team.


Fisher can use the team moving excuse and the salary cap excuse, but when does it end? How long can he ride those excuses to be considered an amazing coach? Again 6 playoff seasons in 16 years. Not a playoff win since 2003.

Also, the purge hurt this team in a lot of ways and certainly wasn't worth it. What other organization has had to purge as bad as we did in those 2-3 seasons? I can't think of another. My personal opinion is that some of our antics (Godfrey, McNair) are reasons players don't want to sign with us, whether its free agents or our own players when their contracts are up.

 

Um...

Again, Fisher rebuilt this team twice and it was torn down due to the previous coach and Reese. If you don't disagree, why do you keep saying the same thing?

I agree the purge wasn't worth it and I didn't like it at the time because at some point I knew they'd have to rip the entire team apart....and did. I've thrown a lot of blame at Floyd Reese for a lot of reasons and that's one of them.

What player said they didn't want to play for the Titans? It's a business and if the Titans have the highest offer, the players come. If the Titans don't have the highest offer, they usually go to the highest bidder...just as AH. McNair and Godfrey are part of the business. I don't LIKE what they did and how those things transpired, but they were poorly thought out and in McNair's case, the agent put the ball in motion to force a trade or get the upper hand in negotiations. GM's should NEVER let contract stuff get to that point...but we have in several cases...the purge and the years leading up to it, couldn't franchise Kearse and lost him for free, lost Runyan for free for an idiotic reason, McNair, AH, soon to be Bulluck and I can see us letting Scaife walk away for free.

The new GM HAS done some good things regarding the cap...locking up our 2 OT's and Finny early on at cheap prices for their worth was VERY smart. But as you have seen with a LOT of our contracts...our core players tend to get paid quite well.

Gut

 

I personally believe its a lot more impressive that Dungy built up the Bucs, a constant loser and joke of the NFL, then Fisher building up the Titans pre-purge or post-purge.


You wouldn't say Fisher was as accomplished or equal in coaching ability to Dungy, would you?

It's the reason players like Bulluck come out and say they don't expect to be Titans anymore. It's the reason AH won't "take a hometown discount" etc.

I think all things being equal, a player that has a chance to play in NY, DC, New England, Chicago, would rather sign there for slightly less than here because 1) It's a bigger market which is more potential advertising income and 2) They know our organization will have you restructure and still cut your butt.

Certainly a player will play here if we are the highest bidder. It's just if we are an equal bidder, I don't think we get as much consideration.

 

Why?

I can't say he's as accomplished because he didn't win a Super Bowl, but I think Fisher and Dungy are equals as coaches. You can really argue that Dungy having ONLY made the Super Bowl once with one of the greatest QB's in football history and multiple hall of famers is a bit of a blight on his 'greatness.' Fisher didn't have as much talent but still built the team into a juggernaut. They have rebuilt the team again...something Dungy didn't have to do. And prior to 2006, the year they won the Super Bowl, Dungy had a losing playoff record (actually I think he still does)...even WITH Manning. Dungy also has had the great advantage of Bill Polian as GM/President while we had Reese destroy us with the cap.

It's pretty clear AH just wanted to get the most jack he could and more power to him....but he ONLY played GREAT when playing for a new contract...so why pay him a paralysing gigantic contract? They offered him what I think they SHOULD have offered him. As for Bulluck, I think there philosophy is to not be caught overpaying older players who are more likely to decline AND break down. I don't particularly like it, but it is sound business.

The only GOOD example is NE where players have gone for cheap ONLY because they think they can get a Super Bowl ring as Belicheck is considered the best coach in the NFL and they have Brady and Moss and an explosive offense. I haven't seen a player spurn us to go to NY, DC or Chicago. But even your reasoning that it'd be for having better chances at advertising dollars has nothing to do with how WE treat players. And make no mistake...many other teams have done similar things as we have, they've just done it in a lower key way. How did Kurt Warner like getting benched in favor of Eli Manning starting when the Giants were 5-4 and 'in the playoffs' if the season had ended that day and the team was out-performing expectations? How'd ya like Dallas unceremoniously dumping Tom Landry when Jerry Jones got the team? NE dumps it's star players harsher and faster than any other because they are all about what have you done for me lately. Expect them to cut Adalius Thomas this off-season simply because he got benched for being late to a meeting and VOICED his disagreement with Belicheck. These franchises are not fairy tale if you've been around as long as I have. Football, when it comes to contracts, is about business first.

Have any examples of this?

Gut

 

Trivia Question: When was the last time the Bucs had a winning record, before Dungy took over as head coach?

Answer: The strike season of 1982.


Turning around the Bucs franchise, turning them into an annual playoff team, an eventual superbowl franchise... that is much more impressive than what Fisher did in his first run with the Titans.

Think about it like this as well, Fisher had a long time to learn without being fired. At least I don't believe he would've been fired during the Memphis/Vandy years unless the team was going 0-16. I know there were rumors about make the playoffs or else in 1999, but Fisher had a long time to prepare for that with a lot of leeway.

Dungy would've been fired if he hadn't had early success.

Turning the Bucs franchise around was the more difficult job.

You can make that argument, but it seems harder to buy into after yesterday.

Manning never beat Florida. Yesterday his crucial interception was the game. The year they won the Superbowl, Manning had one of his worst postseasons.

I did not suggest we should have paid that contract.

Other than Stallworth, no.

It's just a personal feeling on the matter.

Hypothetically, if you are a 24 year old NFL player that is going into his 2nd contract, and you are offered equal dollar amounts from the Titans, Giants, Cowboys, and Pats, who do you sign with?

Ok, you sign with the Titans because they are your favorite. But outside of that, if it were me, I wouldn't sign with the Titans because I've watched how they treat their beloved franchise players.

If any Titan player were to restructure their contract to remain and Titan and help the team, I would seriously question that player's sanity. Cause we'll still cut your butt if we need cap space.

My personal opinion is we have a very bad reputation around the NFL regarding player treatment.

 

Um...

Telling me the last time the Bucs did anything right or good has nothing to do with Dungy and a lot to do with their GM's, Ownership and previous coaches. Both coaches entered a bad situation.

But just so we're clear, you think Dungy with a 54-42 record (56.25% win percentage) and a playoff record of 2-4 (33.33% win percentage) and one NFC Championship game appearance is MORE impressive than Fishers 87-57 record (60.4% win percentage) and 5-4 playoff record (55.55% win percentage) with 1 Super Bowl appearance and 2 AFC Championship game appearances? I'll take Fishers as it is simply better. Included in Fisher's record is the 2 years of the team being a nomad.

Note, these numbers are for full years of coaching as Fisher took over from Pardee with 6 games left. Those 6 games are not included in the record above.

Both coaches took bad teams and made them respectable very quickly. Yes, Fisher had the extra 2 years of being a nomad before real result were expected, but teams usually don't play well when they have 16 road games a year. So I think that's a push.

What's early success? His first year he went 6-10. Fisher's first full season he went 7-9. Dungy's team had a winning record the next year before declining to 8-8 his 3rd year. Fisher team improved to 8-8 his 2nd year and then they went nomad for 2 more seasons.

I'd say the opposite is true. Dungy had to build his team from a losing one into a winning one. The players he drafted/signed as free agents didn't have TB's previous 'losing culture' just as the players the Titans drafted/signed didn't have any connection to the Oilers better years as all of their key players vanished. Both started from scratch. Dungy had a normal situation - to build a losing team into a winning one. Fisher on the other hand, had to also rebuild his team but also play 2 years with no home games. A great challenge for ANY head coach.

Manning is a 4 time MVP at QB. He holds all kinds of NFL records for QB's. Their offense is built around him. There is no denying he's a Hall of Fame QB. Having a player THAT great at THAT position gives you a GREAT ADVANTAGE over any other team. Let's put it this way...is there a single player on the Titans since Fisher took over as head coach that the COLTS would trade Manning for? The FACT that Manning hasn't been as spectacular in the playoffs has a lot to do with the Head Coach. Manning is not the greatest player in the clutch so putting everything on him as a Head Coach is a blight on Dungy. Give Dungy credit for allowing Manning to do his thing means you have to take some blame for him doing his thing worse in the playoffs and you not making adjustments. Perhaps the BEST thing Dungy did in the '06 Super Bowl was to limit Manning in it. He relied on the run game and a great defense to win the game and Manning just had to try not to mess it up. He figured it out for one playoff run...but then went right back to it the next 2 seasons (where they were 1 and done each time I think).

The team that has the best chance of winning the Super Bowl with me on it (and assuming I'm a great fit for all of those teams).Like most PLAYERS, they go to the team that drafts them or gives them the best chance of winning the Super Bowl. They don't just go to their favorite team. I wouldn't either. I would definitely talk to the Head Coaches and GM's and see what they are planning to do with the team scheme-wise and personel wise and that will tell me a lot about their desire to go all out to win the Super Bowl. Belicheck is the best coach of the teams you mention, but they have a lot of problems on their team too...so I wouldn't automatically go there for instance.

I think for the most part, they have been treated very well. While the end for McNair was an embarassment, McNair's agent needs to share the PR embarassment as he forced the issue to try and gain leverage. If you think it's cool for the face of the franchise and his agent to try to extort the team for a better deal, I'm not. McNair was HIGHLY paid for his time here. Bulluck got a ton of money here as well. I thought the organization needed to show a LOT more class with Warren Moon's departure because he WAS all class with the organization but that was before Fisher's time. There are many other players who have been treated the same or worse as the Titans, they just rarely get into the PR debacle that was the McNair situation. Even NE's done it as few times. Giants have, Cowboys have. Titans have.

As would (and does) any other team. You just have more first hand knowledge of the Titans, but all teams do this.

I don't because the reality is that we don't really do anything to our players other teams don't. All players have a certain value and that value is constantly increasing or decreasing. If they are gonna cut you (like LT on the Chargers) and you take a pay cut to stay with the team...and then they cut you the next season anyway...it happens. He's no longer even worth his paycut salary so bye bye. It's the way the business runs.

Gut

 

Yo, I haven't read anything that long since I read the Constitution. Seriously Gut? Seriously? I mean, seriously?

 

The Bucs hadn't made the playoffs in 15 years when Dungy took over. The Oilers hadn't made the playoffs in 1 year.

You seriously trying to tell me they were equally bad situations?

I think Dungy making the playoffs 11 of 13 years coaching is MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE than Fisher making the playoffs in 6 of 16 years coaching.

I think Dungy's Superbowl VICTORY is much more impressive than just a superbowl appearance.


I'll take Dungy's career, as it is CLEARLY BETTER!

It took Fisher 6 seasons to make the playoffs.

It took Dungy 2.

Early Success.

Fisher had 1995,1996,1997,1998 to build up a team. Very little chance Fisher is fired regardless of performance during that time. 4 years to prep players to be ready! And in 1999 Fisher had the benefit of the best home field advantage in the NFL that season. No crowd was better that year.

If Dungy doesn't make the playoffs for 3 seasons he would've been fired.

Manning superbowl wins with Dungy = 1

Manning superbowl wins without Dungy = 0.


Maybe Manning is just too overrated. Particularly as a post season, or when the game matters, QB.

Even if that team is offering you $2 million less?

I don't disagree about the agent. But I don't think the public in general looks at it like that. I think it's seen as "The Titans locked out McNair" simple as that.

You can't name me a more embarrassing situation than the way we handled McNair.

I disagree that our reputation is not worse than any other football franchise regarding player treatment... and leave it at that.