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Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by Torch7, Feb 19, 2008.
Sorry-I have not been avoiding the conversation, but I have been tied up with work. Seems like you guys have been having some fun conversations since last I checked.
I understand the point that some of you are trying to make, and I think we can all agree that Vince needs to improve. Cute little jokes about his poop not stinking aside, we can all agree that for us to achieve our goals, we need Vince (and many others) to play better. I would argue that a part (not all, but a part) of his poor performance had to do with injury and inadequate talent—some would argue that it had little if anything to do with either of these factors—that is fine, and I will respect (but disagree) with that view.
The bigger question in this thread is regarding Vince going to school, which is where I disagree with your overwhelming premise that going to school precludes Vince from improving. In order to make that case, one would either have to argue that 1. Vince is too lazy and not committed to putting in an honest week’s worth of work and go to school at the same time or 2. He is too stupid to do both. I obviously disagree with both statements. As I have said several times, most people in this country who have gone to college have been able to do both, and I have no doubt that Vince can handle both his schoolwork and his job.
As far as Riverman is concerned-I have never met the guy, I don’t know the guy and I certainly would not play the race card directed solely at him (although I personally am not comfortable with making fun of his intelligence based on the way he speaks, and the ticket argument is bush league—how many people here haven’t received a ticket-especially on a campus of 50,000 students with probably 10,000 parking spaces), but if you honestly think that race is still not an issue, I think you are being extremely naive. Whether we recognize it or not, we all have biases. If Peyton Manning (even pre-Super Bowl) or Jay Cutler were to return to school, many of the same people criticizing Vince would talk about how exemplary their actions were-regardless of their on-field performance. When Brett Favre admits to abusing alcohol and drugs, we sympathize with him-if Vince were to admit to abusing alcohol and illegal drugs, this Board would be flooded with hatred.
Racial biases do exist and rather than applauding a young man who is being a great example to his fans, the young people in Nashville and Austin and to the people back home from the neighborhood he grew up in, people here start hurling around unfounded accusations and premises that he cannot handle his job and school at the same time.
So my question is, why is there an assumption that he cannot do his schoolwork and his job at the same time? If you are going to call him out, explain your reasoning. Is he too lazy? Does he not care? Is he too stupid? Why do you think that he cannot handle what most of the rest of us could: balancing school and work.
Well we did try to lighten up the topic, but if you insist on weighing it down again, I'll state my opinions again.
1) Vince did not progress last year as expected in reading defenses, calling effective audibles and throwing mechanics. This contributed to poor red zone scoring, erratic QB ratings and excessive INTs.
2) My premise has never been that returning to school precludes him from improving. It has always been that the time required to pursue his degree competes with time that he could dedicate to improving. That concerns me because the NFL is a league of professional athletes where improving and/or being near the top of the league in performance is necessary to maintain employment. (Hence the moniker "Not For Long league.) Titans fans deserve the best dedication from Vince for the organization because we picked him 3rd overall and pay him A LOT of money.
3) It has never been about "is he smart enough" or "mature enough" for whatever reason- I didn't not bring those topics into the thread- you did. I just threw out a few counterpionts that suggest Vince isn't that bright or mature in response to your argument.
4) It most assuredly is not about race as it appears you suggest. If Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Brett Favre displayed the same performance DURING THEIR SECOND YEAR and stated that they were going back to college in their off-season, I would raise the issue with them as well.
5) I have stated numerous times that it is ADMIRABLE that Vince is returning to school. I don't know any other way to say it.
It's all good.
He who lives in glass houses.... just kidding... I couldn't resist.
I think human nature has caused the boards to be divided, and that both sides of the divide, are closer to agreeing on many aspects of the past season than not.
One Side will say, he needs to improve b/c of XYZ. The other side will say XYZ is not the issue. The rebuttal is then, your a HOMER, Longhorn Fan boy!... The counter statement... YOUR A HATER Racist... It really is quite laughable once you abandon your preconceived notion, or desire to be right, and look at the situation from a mutual vantage point.
I think there is no way of knowing who is right or wrong concerning any situation you see on the field without having all the "FACTS" available.
1.) IS VINCE calling the wrong plays in the HUDDLE? - according to Mawae.
If so, someone needs to correct him, immediately or at the next practice, film session. Last time I checked, he doesn't run the team, IF the employer is allowing the employee to call the shots, there is a bigger issue within the organization that really needs to be addressed.
2.)Are the Recievers, running bad routes, or getting knocked off their routes, or whatever other blame we want to put on their shoulders?
See above comments.
3.)Does VINCE not have the cognitive skills to read defenses? Did they have to scale down the offense for him, to the point it became so predictable, that my 10 year old is calling the plays before they happen?
Quite simply we don't know the answers to all these questions. The organization fired the OC, which would probably happen on most of our 9 to 5's if we were managers, or directors, and our numbers slumped. Now we have a new OC, if Vince still doesn't perform next year, then we can draw further conclussions. However I have a sneaking suspension, that if things turn around, the argument will become 'Hogesque', Heimerdinger is a genious, he turned around VINCE's play, and the system is what changed things. Instead of Dinger, Vince, the receiving corp found a way to make things work.
I still maintain my stance that school is a good thing for Vince. To get away, and re-focus really does wonders for my learning and maturation process, I work in an industry where things are constantly changing.
I still maintain my stance that "Reading Defenses", is a work that takes time and experience.
I still maintain the woes of this season, are not squarely on Vince making bad throws, and bad reads. (Which he did some of..I will repent for this statement later -- Church of Vince Members.. LOL). We sucked as a team at times this year. From what I have seen this season, the entire offense looked stellar on some plays or series, and others some portion of the unit regressed, sometimes it was the o-line, somtimes its was VINCE, sometimes the recievers, others times it was play calling. I say if the Titans take the field and win as a team, they also lose as a team. I challenge those who have recorded games to go back and watch them, objectively. You will see the season wasn't as bad, as the stat line indicates.
I will give you reasoning on my veiw of him going back to school. Being in the military, we are given plenty of opportunities to go to school part time or full time in the evenings, or even online. BUT when a new guy from Basic Training gets to our base, we put him in books to learn his job. This takes about 12 months, and during this time, they are not allowed to attend college, or other education. We want to make sure they KNOW THEIR JOB, before we let them further their academic education. Once we fill that they are responsible enough, and have learned their job adequatly enough, they can attend college.
I feel the same way about VY. I am glad he is going back to school because it will only make him smarter as a total person. My question is, does he know his JOB well enough where he can do both. If so, then BRAVO, win us a superbowl next year. If he comes out and does equal to or below his output last year, then I will say he should have spent that time in college toward learning whatever it is NFL QB have to learn, film, his WR, more film, playbook, audibles, techinique, ect.
That is my .02 cents.
Technically, that was a typographical error rather than grammar- but I'll take my medicine with humility.
I know... just wanted to lighten things up a bit again.
You've fought the good fight Riverman, and I still agree with you 100%.