Sam Adams, anyone?

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by TorontoTitanFan, May 14, 2007.

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  1. SEC 330 BIPOLAR

    SEC 330 BIPOLAR jive turkey

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  2. Carpy

    Carpy Disgruntled foreign veteran

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    Well, I think that settles it.
     
  3. Gunny

    Gunny Shoutbox Fuhrer

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    :ha:

    GREAT! find.
     
  4. It's exactly how it works...

    Wrong. Completely wrong. In a 2-gap scheme when the DT is supposed to react, then yes he's supposed to hold his ground against a double team. In a 1-gap scheme, as this franchise has played since before Jeff Fisher even became the head coach in Houston, the idea is to beat the double team and penetrate the OLine. We don't scheme for DTs to protect the MLB. We use them to disrupt the offense themselves. We aren't the Ravens or the Dolphins of recent memory.

    Wrong again. Both are 1-gap attacking DTs. They are best at trying to beat their blocker, not trying to hold him up. And even if you didn't take my word for it, just read a draft profile of Mahelona. Description aside, he tallied 5 sacks and 18.5 TFLs as a junior at UT.

    And this ludicrous idea that a penetrating DT needs to rack up sacks is completely off base. Few DTs in the NFL, even penetrators, get 10 sacks. Pro Bowl DTs rarely get 10 sacks in a year. Plus, it's not all about speed. It's about getting off the snap quickly and beating your man, be it with speed, quickness, or strength.

    Haynesworth IS a penetrator. You can't just suggest any DT who happens to be over 300 lbs can't be a penetrator. You don't have to limit yourself to 285 lb DTs just to find a 1-gap tackle.

    SCHEME IS IRRELEVANT. I keep saying it. Just look at the last 10 Super Bowl winners. 3-4 zone blitzers, 4-3 1-gap teams, 4-3 2-gap teams, Tampa-2, man coverage teams, zone coverage teams, even teams with amorphous always changing defenses. Just pick a scheme and put the right players on the field. We don't have the players.

    Last year we had good players in Pacman, Bulluck, Thornton, Hope, and KVB. No one else played especially well. And that includes Haynesworth, who went from being suspended to being a disappointment. No one else provided much. We had 2 terrible starters in the secondary, 1 terrible MLB, and a mostly nondescript DLine. You can't win like that.

    Sounds like he did exactly what he needed to in order to maximize his talent at hand. If you can't cover both WRs in man coverage, switch to zone. Play to the strengths of your LBs and try to protect your secondary from getting beat deep too much.

    I say he's inconsistent? He IS inconsistent. Entire articles have been written on that fact. He goes from being dominant and beating double teams one week to being a virtual non-factor the next. Being able to beat double teams is expected from your best players. That's exactly why I said that they should try to replace Haynesworth earlier this offseason. But they couldn't, so we just have to hope he finally plays to his potential. That will help KVB. But they still need other players to step up at the other spots on the DLine...

    :rolleyes: Booger McFarland is a penetrating, 1-gap DT. Sapp got double teamed constantly and he beat it often because he's a great DT. That's WHY they double teamed him. What the hell kind of OC do you expect to double team a team's second best DT and then just let Warren Sapp face 1 lone blocker all the time? Even a pee wee coach knows better than that...
     
  5. CRUDS

    CRUDS Moderator Staff

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    In the offseason prior to last season I was stoked to see The Bengals pick up Adams. I said the same pro-Adams as many of those here are saying.
    Then the season came. I watched 16 Bengals games last season and paid particular attention to Adams (when he played, which wasn't much). He was slow, ineffective and generally looked lost.. By no means was he clogging any lanes. If it wasn't for the surprising outstanding play of Domata Peko the position would have been a total disaster since as bad as Adams was, John Thornton was even more pathetic..

    I hear the arguement that Cincy was Ok against the run, but in reality their passing game was so pathetic that teams ultimately abandoned the run. LT's "meager" 100 yard game in SD's comeback rally game could have easily been a 200 yarder if Rivers wasn't able to complete the longball downfield at will.. Same as the Saints game. New England stayed with the run and both Dillon and Maroney sliced and diced all day..

    So the point is, Adams is not the Adams of old. Buffalo fans were not jazzed about his final year with the Bills, he only managed to last 1 year of his three year contract with a Cincinnati defense that has no depth at DT. The guy takes half a season to get into what might be called playing shape. The only positive I can think of if the Titans signed him is that they have enough dough that it probably wouldn't be any worse off financially and Sam is supposedly a positive "communty" presence.. Does that equal more wins?
     
  6. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    Um...no.

    Just so you know where I'm coming from, Buddy Ryan and his sons don't teach it the way you're writing it (and Fisher learned it from them, not you). As a 3 tech, yes, you penetrate so the OC can't help double you (as you'll have to claim later in explaining how Sapp was constantly doubled) and you don't get reach blocked. But the guy playing the 1 tech IS supposed to absorb the double team (keeping the OC/OG off the MLB intially) until one of them goes for the MLB. In there 4-3 D, they taught that player (once doubled with no pulling motion) to hold the guy (even drag him down) to stop him from reaching the LB's. In fact, in recent years, we've seen more defensive holding calls on DL doing just that. The Ryan's further teach that rather than get pushed back (by the double team, you make a pile). The few times you see a 1 or head up DT make penetration is when it's the goal line (he's trying to shoot low driving the OC into the backfield to prevent an OG from pulling) or when they initally double the player but then try and pull (leaving a big gap to penetrate into the backfield).

    You'll notice the Bears...also a 1 gap 4-3 D play there stronger run D player DT (Scott or Tank) as the 1 tech and there faster/better one on one DT as the 3 tech.

    Mahelona is not slow, but he's not fast for a 340lb. And in college, he was bigger than almost every player he faced...

    If what you're saying is true...that our 1 technique DT should be pentrating the double team...why don't we use a very quick 280-295lb guy. He'll be much quicker than any 320lb OG, right? Or TBrown should be starting and doing VERY well considering he's VERY quick. But watch the Giants game and you'll see him get blown off the ball when they double team him. What your saying works in theory...not practice. You ever heard of stacking?

    Exactly my point! What I'm saying is that if both DT's were pentrators, DT's would be racking up a lot more sacks. Plus, there wouldn't really be a pocket if you could just split the double team like in basketball. But it almost never works like that. And THAT is why DT's rarely get big sack numbers.

     
  7. First off, of course you want DLinemen to be able to hold their ground if an opposing OLineman is trying to push them back. But you can't play an attacking scheme with guys who can't attack. The key is to find balance, which is why Adams would be in huge demand IF HE WERE STILL IN HIS PRIME. He's no longer a good DT for an attacking 1-gap D.

    Ted Washington and Gilbert Gardner were excellent run stopping DTs who couldn't be moved by OLines. But they played for defenses that didn't need attacking DTs. Those types of guys couldn't play in our D because they can't penetrate.

    And you should note that the Bears don't have a since DT over 305 lbs (even if you still count Ian Scott). They don't have a space eater on their roster. Why? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FIT THEIR SCHEME.

    I'd say he's pretty fast for a 340 man. Especially since he only weighs 311...

    As I said above, you have to have balance. You have to be able to penetrate as well as hold your ground against the run. We have used smaller DTs quite often. Josh Evans, Salave'a, Kevin Carter all played DT for us at between 285-290 lbs. But I fully understand that you won't stop the run with nothing but 285 lb DTs. And at the same time, the Titans were able to stop the run with DTs no bigger than about 300-310 prior to Haynesworth's arrival (and his athleticism is what made him fit the scheme).

    Are you even reading my posts? I can't possibly be more clear that scheme doesn't matter in terms of a team's ability to win games. And I also can't possibly be more clear that scheme does matter in terms of a player fitting in.

    Name a single top defensive team that started as many zeros as we did last year. By my count, that's 4 (Sirmon, Thompson, Hill, and whoever they lined up at RDE on any given week). And it's not as if we had anything good from the DT position, either, but I won't go so far as to call them zeros.

    Next you'll be telling me that we can just pick up guys off the street and win the Super Bowl if we only fire Schwartz...

    Thompson and Hill aren't good, period. Doesn't matter what scheme you put them in. I think they can improve Hill's play simply by keeping the play in front of him as much as possible, but that's it.

    I don't expect him, or anyone else, to beat double teams on every play. But if he can be a dominant and disruptive force like we've seen from him in flashes, then I don't see why he can't do it most of the time.

    I hate to break this to you, but Simeon Rice never played for the Bucs until 2001. Warren Sapp was getting double digit sacks through the 2000 season, but never had a double digit sack season with Tampa after that. After 2000 he dropped off when he intentionally bulked up. It hurt his quickness and ability to penetrate. He went the next 5 years without even sniffing 10 sacks until last year.
     
  8. Adams signed with the Broncos.
     
  9. vslyke

    vslyke In Dinger We Trust

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    Sam Adams?

    He would be a great guy to contribute this year and teach the younger players how to play. He seems to be ready to play as well:

     
  10. Kid Gloves

    Kid Gloves Guest

    Sam Adams?

    Yah! I'd love a Sam Adams Summer Ale about now...

    [​IMG]
     
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