Best DL Fisher's ever had?

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by Alex1939, May 1, 2010.

?

Who da best? Public Poll.

Poll closed May 11, 2010.
  1. Albert "SMASH" Haynesworth

    34.7%
  2. Jevon "FREAK" Kearse

    61.1%
  3. Other (who?)

    4.2%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Psychop1

    Psychop1 Big Tee

    3,290
    913
    539
    Kearse had a major impact, which was evident when he left, same as Haynesworth.

    Sorry your popularity contest got turned into a football discussion.
     
  2. JCBRAVE

    JCBRAVE goTitans 2019 Survivor Champion

    82,274
    26,649
    1,509
    The Freak had a better nickname, therefor he had to be the better of the two. That's all that counts is the cool nickname. CJ2K is the best because he is CJ2K. Vince Young is the best because he calls himself "VY". LOL great reasoning huh... Derrick Mason was our best WR to date, because he was also know as "D-Mase". What's Fat Al's nickname? "Fat Al"??? Psh, that's wack. The Freak all day!

    History shows us the best players have awesome nicknames. "Air McNair", another one. If Kenny Britt wants to go down in history as a great Titan, he'll first need a cool nickname. I hear Vince is now calling Javon Ringer "Pinball Ringer". IDK, I'm excited for him now LOL..... Also, ever notice how Vince just wins, and he's also known as; "VY" which looks like a "W" for win. :)
     
    • High Five High Five x 1
  3. Soxcat

    Soxcat Pro Bowler

    9,131
    1,117
    679
    If we look stricky at value to the team I'd go with AH in his prime over Kearse in his prime any day of the week if I had to pick between them.

    First, sacks guys are easier to find than guys who do it all like AH. There were 14 players with double digit sacks last year in the NFL. I would agree great pass rushers don't grow on trees but guys like AH only come around every decade or so. You can also get pass rushers later in the draft and when you look at that list of double digit sack guys you see plenty that were drafted in the 2nd round on. DTs like AH get drafted in the top 5 usually and you saw where the big DTs got drafted in this years draft.

    Put a player like AH at DT and all the DL gets better. A good DT also improves the run defense as well as the pass defense. A guy like Freeney is a liability against the run. If you look at all the DTs in the league you will see the best sack guy of the bunch had only 6 sacks (Tony Brown had 5). In 2008AH had 8.5 sacks and missed 2 games. He had 6 sacks the year before and missed 3 games. Those are some gaudy stats for a guy who weighs 350 pounds when guys that big normally just clog the middle.
     
    • High Five High Five x 2
  4. Psychop1

    Psychop1 Big Tee

    3,290
    913
    539
    I'm not saying he is without talent, I just think Kearse was more talented. I think he did more in his rookie year than Haynesworth did in his best year. All this talk about Kearse's prime; He never got to play healthy in his prime.

    For all the talk about what Haynesworth did for our D-Line, why does he look like a liability in Washington? Half the Redskins fans don't want him. The team tried to trade him. Orakpo had a much bigger impact on that defense than Haynesworth did. In his best season here, he was beating double teams. Not this past season. Titans' defense has had transition issues moving on without Haynesworth but a lot our problems can be chalked up to the scheme change and injuries. He benefited playing on the Titans' defense just as much as the defense benefited from his play.
     
  5. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Space Invaders Champion

    21,253
    8,195
    1,189
    No no no. I wanted it as a football discussion. I will lose a popularity contest on this site every time except against Jesse, and that's only a maybe. Since page 3 there has been some good discussion.

    I just had to explain to the Aussie how my typed comments are my opinion, and I don't mean them as "fact" because that would be ridiculous.
     
    • High Five High Five x 1
  6. Gunny

    Gunny Shoutbox Fuhrer

    51,445
    8,160
    1,359
    Yet said they were wrong. Interesting...

    yeah right...hypocrite.
     
  7. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

    8,052
    2,249
    669
    Huh?

    The short answer is that Kearse wasn't even a top 3 pass rusher his best season while AH wasn't the best DT his best season, he was probably the best defensive PLAYER at any position.

    AH had no peers in '99 because he wasn't in the NFL.

    Which is more important? Being the 4th best pass rusher in the NFL or being the best defensive player in the NFL.

    And as far as stats being more important than the impact to a team, how do you defend or even support this position? A team drafts a franchise LT and all of a sudden they have a great passing game instead of the franchise QB living in the dirt. The LT has no stats so he's only as good as the other LT's that have no stats instead of comparing the major improvement the offenses passing game experienced? it's funny. NFL coaches always talk about winning the battle in the trenches, but you're basically saying only stat guys make the difference?

    Since you say there is a lot you can measure a DT against his peers with stats, was Jovan Haye as good as AH in 2007? They had the same number of sacks. Players like Corey Redding had even more sacks which you imply means he's better...and yet no one's offering Redding a $100mil salary and he's not being moved for a 1st round draft pick so the NFL doesn't agree with you. AH drawing double and triple teams gets no stat except on someone else's stat sheet when they get to make the play due to the havoc that AH caused. How do you explain that away?

    [/quote]Then why would use tackles to argue that Haynesworth is a better D-Lineman than Kearse early in his career?[/quote]

    I didn't say AH is better than Kearse just because he has more tackles. But tackles is a stat where you'd expect LB's to have the most followed by DE's, followed by DT's (forgetting about the secondary for a minute). And while people are denigrating AH for being lazy, fat, out of shape, and not trying hard, it's shocking that he has a ton MORE tackles than a high motor super fast and athletic DE who chases guys down 20yds down the field. And since AH played far fewer games and even fewer snaps, it's an impressive distinction. Does that alone make AH better? No. But it does erase all doubt if you thought they were equally disruptive in the pass rush and then think Kearse is a high motor guy while AH is a lazy, not hardworking, constantly out of the lineup dud.

    Kearse was better at creating pressure on the QB? If he was so good, why did he play the LDE spot so he could go against RT's and not RDE who face LT's? How come no matter how good of a DE we have on the field...Kearse, KVB in his prime, Ford, Hayes, ect...other teams are doubling AH! What other teams are afraid of should tell you who's better. And statistically, AH's best year in '08, he was tied for first in sacks at his position. Kearse has never been better than 4th. So when you take into account AH drew all the double teams and Kearse frequently didn't (even in his prime) AND AH was tied for most sacks at DT whereas Kearse never came close, I find it perplexing that you rate Kearse as the better pass rusher and better at creating pressure.

    In '08, Kearse started at LDE and contributed pretty much nothing in the pass rush. So even with 3 guys rushing...Brown (who's a good rusher), KVB (a Pro Bowl rusher), and AH...our D still worked because they constantly doubled AH and even at that, he wreaked enough havoc to give the D a lot of pressure from the front 4 (3 really since Kearse had only 1 or 2 pressures). AH was a beast and no one could handle him 1 on 1 and frequently, they couldn't handle him even with a double team.

     
  8. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

    8,052
    2,249
    669
    Um...

    Then why did the D get WORSE statistically when Kearse arrived with his best season? Our D got dramatically better with AH's best seasons...

    Gut
     
  9. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

    8,052
    2,249
    669
    Um...

    Based on what?

    For a person who likes stats over contributions, I don't understand your logic. Tony Brown had 38 tackles and 5 sacks in 15 games. AH had 37 tackles and 4 sacks (with 5 passes defensed) in 12 games. AH is a liability (while being double teamed all the time) while TBrown was awesome? Make no mistake, I think TBrown was excellent last year, but perception with fans is frequently not reality. orakpo had a lot of sacks going 1v1 all day because they're doubling AH...but AH sucks and Orakpo is awesome?

    Yeah, that tends to happen when they realize they WAY overpaid for a player and he doesn't fit the defensive scheme the new coach wants to run. What doesn't make sense?

    Being a Titans fan, I'd be a little surprised if you somehow watched all 12 Redskins games that AH played and kept track of how many times he beat double teams. How many times this season was Orakpo doubled? How many times did Orakpo beat double teams?

    Um...there was no change in scheme. We ran the exact same D scheme (which is WHY they kept Cecil to run it) so you can't say our problems had to do with scheme. Secondly, we were still terrible when the entire D was healthy. What do you chalk that up to besides losing AH since that was the ONLY real change made by the D...?

    AH benefitted from playing in our scheme as much as our scheme benefitted from him? Considering he was an effective and very rich player last year NOT playing in our scheme and our D took a nose dive, the facts disprove your opinion.

    Gut
     
  10. RavensShallBurn

    RavensShallBurn Ruck the Favens

    24,928
    10,440
    939
    Gut, why are you triple posting??? :nono:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  • Welcome to goTitans.com

    Established in 2000, goTitans.com is the place for Tennessee Titans fans to talk Titans. Our roots go back to the Tennessee Oilers Fan Page in 1997 and we currently have 4,000 diehard members with 1.5 million messages. To find out about advertising opportunities, contact TitanJeff.
  • The Tip Jar

    For those of you interested in helping the cause, we offer The Tip Jar. For $2 a month, you can become a subscriber and enjoy goTitans.com without ads.

    Hit the Tip Jar