The 2010 Official Reinfeldt is an Idiot Thread

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by TitanJeff, Mar 4, 2010.

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  1. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    Nice. Here are some other quotes from you in this thread:

    I see how it goes. When someone refutes your comments, they are either dishonest or "an azz".

    Let's recap what I've heard from you in this thread:

    You seem to think paying for "first-tier" free agents is some kind of magic elixir for winning Super Bowls when those teams who have won it recently rarely are big players in free agency. You use examples such as the Steelers, Colts and Patriots as top franchises yet they RARELY (if ever) do it.

    From a recent Peter King article: "One more point about the value of splurging: In 2008, as a precursor to their Super Bowl seasons, Arizona and Pittsburgh signed no one from other teams in the first two days of free agency. In 2009, as a precursor to their Super Bowl seasons, New Orleans and Indianapolis signed no one from other teams in the first two days of free agency."

    When asked to be specific as to which "first-tier" players you feel the Titans should have paid to bring in, you can't produce any names. It's pretty hard to justify any free agent signing unless you look at each individually and the impact in production and the cap that player has. No, Cro wasn't a free agent. He was a trade. If you want to debate the Titans not willing to trade or other front office moves, maybe you should start a thread on it. This one was to discuss how the Titans approach free agency.

    You say whatever any single team pays a player is their value regardless of how insane the amount which means you feel the Titans are cheap or don't want to win a Super Bowl despite there being 30 other teams who also didn't overspend.

    You refuse to understand that the Titans would be unable to sign many of their own players if they had a ton of cap tied up in "first-tier" free agent signings. Players like Roos, Stewart, Finnegan and others might be playing elsewhere if they had signed Odom, Brandon Jones, Haynesworth or brought in Nate Clements. They'd not have a shot to keep Tony Brown or Tulloch who would both be "first-tier" players in this free agency period had they become unrestricted.

    You didn't seem to understand that an uncapped season didn't mean you could bring in a guy and pay his entire contract in 2010. There will be a cap after the dust settles and there is a limit as to how much of a contract can be paid this season.

    If I am misunderstanding any of your positions, straighten me out. Do it based in fact. There is plenty of history out there. If you are just stating opinion, great. You are entitled to that. But don't start calling people dishonest when they present valid points which refute your opinion. That's what a message board is all about.
     
  2. Riverman

    Riverman That may be.... Tip Jar Donor

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    TJ- you have "piece-mealed" my comments and pulled them out of context. I hope other posters will read the entire post that fully defines where I am coming from on these issues. I think in this case quoting my entire posts would have been a more accurate way to represent my statements/opinions. You will find my inflammatory comments are most often in response to a preceeding post using inflammatory rhetoric.

    I'll summarize my "opinions" about the Titans front office and this thread and attempt to clarify them. In response, I hope you and others will not sensationalize them, misrepresent them or request lists to be produced (that I believe are only to ignore facets of that list that don't support your own argument(s)).


    1. The front office does not tend to get involved early in free agency or engage in potential trades when opportunities arise.

    2. Because of "opinion" #1, the Titans miss a few cost-effective opportunities to improve the quality of our personnel.

    3. Granted not EVERY free agent available provides a cost-effective opportunity, but by the SAME taken there are some.

    4. The front office DOES make some mistakes, just as they get some decisions right. I believe, for the most part, we are average in our personnel decisions.

    5. I have NEVER suggested that front end "splurging" is the BEST method nor supported any argument in the like. I have only suggested that the Titans would benefit from a serious look at some free agents (or trade scenarios) earlier than they do when the team has obvious holes to fill. Comments assigned to me in this regard are factitious and dishonest.

    6. The term "market value" IS represented by what the market is willing to pay. Yes, it may be different from a particular organization's "perceived" value of a player, but the term defines itself. My "opinion" is simply that our organization rarely, if ever, pays (matches) "market value". For that reason, I believe that we are regarded as "bargain hunters" and IMO that isn't ALWAYS a good method to staff our team.


    TJ- this is your thread. I believe by the title your intention of the thread was to invite sensational and polarizing opinions and to discredit those posters' ideas that are critical of Mike Reinfeldt and our front office. I admit that I took the liberty to defend the idea that being critical of our front office does not have to be sensational or polarizing by engaging in dialogue in this thread. But I felt it necessary to represent that rational discussion would yield the idea that this franchise gets some things right as well as misses out on some others. I have particularly responded to you and Gunny because I don't recall seeing any posts by you in this thread that admits the front office gets it wrong sometimes. And yes, I stand by the comments that there has been misprepresentation, sensationalization, and "intellectually dishonest" or "disingenuine" requests for, and responses to, lists.

    I realize this message board is your creation and you have made significant sacrifices to keep it running. Your efforts are appreciated as I can only imagine the challenges you face on a daily basis. I also realize it isn't popular to challenge "The Big Kahuna". I take exception that you represent me as intolerant of others opinions in your above post. I also believe that to be inaccurate.

    I'm done here.
     
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  3. Psychop1

    Psychop1 Big Tee

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    I didn't say he was meaningless, but he was definitely a cog. Gregg Williams is the ONLY reason that defense came together at all. You take away Gregg Williams's pressure schemes, you might as well take away seven or eight of Sharper's interceptions.

    Again, you got it wrong. I said I like Reggie Hayward, not Porter. Even Joey Porter is just more than serviceable, even at this point in his career. Sharper and Porter are almost the same type of player, just playing different positions. Joey Porter actually could help our team, as we have a need at DE. Sharper on the other hand won't help us. This team needs more pressure.

    Also, Sharper hadn't had success like he did last season for some time. Even Chris Brown had a good season here. That doesn't mean he's a quality RB now. Signing Sharper when the Saints did last season would be like us resigning Nick Harper right now. Furthermore, it's a moot point, because the Sharper signing, a short term contract for a player that's had success in the past is the same kind of signing the Titans do all the time. Rod Hood? There's your Sharper signing. Witherspoon? There's your Sharper signing. Hell, those guys actually have more upside. Apparently, they only matter when we don't sign them.
     
  4. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Space Invaders Champion

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    His years in Minnesota were pretty good. He had 4 ints in 2007 and 2006, 9 ints in 2005.

    I know it's a "what have you done for me lately" kind of league, but he was still successful as a Viking.

    Sharper is a future hall of famer, I think it's a disservice to his career to compare him to Chris Brown.

    Talk to me when Rod Hood or Witherspoon sets a NFL single season record.
     
  5. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    Far enough. I'll address them individually.

    They don't tend. Few successful teams do.

    Again, this is a generalization. If you really want to make a case, why not be more specific. Who have the Titans missed out on?

    Such as? The Titans, every season, bring in cost-effective free agents. Some more than others. You won't see them be a player in free agency in the first 48 hours when that "first-tier" usually are signed.

    I'm not going to defend the Titans front office on every move they make. My goal in this thread is to address their approach to free agency. I do think the Titans are above average in most of their decisions. I do feel their approach to free agency has been, and is, the same approach the majority of successful franchises have taken.

    Then define "first-tier" which is the word used throughout this thread. In my mind, that is Peppers, Dansby, Robinson--the guys you see signed the first few days of any given year of free agency. I don't understand why you feel the Titans are not already active in free agency when the Titans have two starting WRs, one OL (two last season), one DL (three last season), one LB, and one DB (two last season) who were all unrestricted free agents. If you look at depth, there are even more.

    Also, you have to look at the job the Titans have done keeping their own from becoming free agents. Yes, not signing guys early in free agency impacts this. There you'll find your two OTs, your #1 CB, a starting G and your nickel.

    When you look at the starting roster closely, almost all the starting players have been free agents or would have been if the Titans hadn't gotten a deal done.

    Then I believe it's this "perceived value" which is the real beef you have with the Titans. Again, it boils down to individual players and the position on the roster that player is supposed to upgrade. It also has to be weighed against other needs and future contracts.

    What lists? I have yet to see you produce any list of individual players the Titans should have signed. Blanket statements like "we need to sign more first-tier free agents" is all well and good but, unless you can back that up with any names, it's just a vague statement.
     
  6. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Space Invaders Champion

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    Maybe this is part of the problem. Since we NEVER make a big free agent signing, and there's usually a case to be made for one every offseason, you are under the false impression that people think we can sign an expensive free agent every offseason, since there are posts every year saying sign so and so?

    Or maybe not, just giving you the benefit of the doubt.


    Anyway, if we signed Asante Samuel a few years ago we wouldn't be without Amano, Finnegan, Roos, and Stewart... that's crazy talk.

    Just like if we signed Dansby this year, we wouldn't be releasing four player next year to make room. And if we had signed Samuel, it wouldn't make as much sense to sign someone of Dansby's expense this offseason. (Assuming you believe a cap will return in 2011, I am really leaning towards the belief that there will be a strike.)


    And I think some of the cap hit these expensive players would represent would be offset by NOT signing some of the bargain barrel players. Like, no Rod Hood and Witherspoon.


    Again, I've come to the conclusion that some Titans fans have an irrational fear of salary cap purges because of what happened a few years ago. I think this fear is leading to the exaggerations that signing an expensive player somehow equals cutting 5 starters off the team.


    Anyway, your way is what the Titans do. So I don't expect to hear much criticism of our defense regardless of performance since we have the guys you want. Finnegan, Hood, Mouton as CB. Hayes and Ball as DE. Witherspoon and Thornton as OLB.

    I hope it's a better defense than I'm expecting.
     
  7. CRUDS

    CRUDS Moderator Staff

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    I think the irrational thinking is that these high-priced FA's = automatic Superbowl.
    Folks here were ready to hand over the Fed for Tory Holt last season. How'd that work out for the Jags? FA is roulette at best.
     
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  8. Big Time Titan

    Big Time Titan Big Time Titan

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    You said it brotha.
     
  9. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Space Invaders Champion

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    Oh I certainly don't think that. I just don't like that we automatically exclude any high priced free agent from consideration.

    No doubt. Then again, Garrard sucks.

    The good thing about Roulette, when the number hits it pays big!
     
  10. Riverman

    Riverman That may be.... Tip Jar Donor

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    Patriots have with Wes Welker, Colts did with Vinatieri, Eagles did with Kearse, Steelers did with Farrior, Cowboys with numerous players.....There are only a "few" successful teams in terms of multiple SB wins and they certainly have brought in FA's early and/or high priced so the "successful" teams HAVE done it.


    Understand I consider trades and free agency represent equal opportunities. Also I only consider we would have benefitted from looking at positions where we had a personnel shortage. Hard to remember exactly what our team needs were in various years. This year Cromartie and Leigh Bodden. Past years (barring unpredictable injuries) Odom, Rolle, Mason, Bart Scott, jerry porter, Faneca, Runyan, Haynesworth (IFIRC, there was some discussion that he would have played for us for less but we wouldn't come up 2 million), Randy Moss, Berrian etc.

    And before you start attacking those player decisions individually, list for me the people we did take that worked out BETTER for us than if HAD taken them.



    Are you really suggesting that there were ABSOLUTELY no "first tier" opportunities that would have worked out well for us to have brought in- even if just for a look?


    Then why hasn't their same approach yielded the same results as those successful franchises with deep playoff runs and SB appearances/wins?


    What starts on our team is not an accurate measure of quality FA decisions until we field a team that goes deep into the playoffs. The Raiders, Rams and Browns all have starters that were acquired via free agency. We haven't won a playoff game in 7 years.

    The term "first tier" to me just indicates that those FA's that are generating interest from other teams early in the FA period. Most of those do appear to land contracts higher than what I believe the Titans perceive their true value is. Hence, the reason I think the Titans are reticent to pay "market value" for some "first tier" players despite our obvious needs. And I completely understand that paying some of these players has a greater effect on who else we could keep as well as cap effects. But come on man, was keeping guys like Chris Henry (and other guys we eventually wound up cutting) around hoping they develop worth not signing another proven vet to a higher contract. I think not. I think it was more a product of not being able to admit a mistake and cut the losses early. And I also realize that there are cap effects from making a "big signing" one or two years from despite the "free pass" teams get on cap space for this year. That is why some teams are creatively front loading short term contracts this year.

    Again- I think the Titans are average in this department. This doesn't sound like anything creative or distinctive from other average teams, especially since we haven't won a playoff game since '03.


    Understood. But nothing ventured equals nothing gained. And the Titans HAVE been burned with bigger contracts in the past. So it is understandable they are reticent to take the same risk again. My "beef" has been that they have swung too far to the opposite side of "risk taking" and should at least seriously consider spending a bit of money. Stop the idea that there is NO FREE AGENT from outside the organization that is actually worth the "market value". And there has been cap space to sign one or two of these players, the Titans just use it later to staff with players cut from other teams TC's. That is my "beef". We often wind up cutting those guys within the year.


    Lists from other people's posts as well as above. There really does not need to be a "list" of players to support the idea that the Titan's front office is not perfect. If you mean one or two as "more" when you paraphrase my statement as "we need to sign more first-tier free agents" and you mean those players to be positions of great need we have, then I don't see anything vague at all about a statement like that.

    Anyway- I'm OK agreeing to disagree. I've got a bunch of work I've got to get done so I really am done here this time.
     
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