With the 30th pick in the '09 NFL Draft...

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by Ubiq, Jan 10, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Gut

    Gut Starter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,849
    Ah...

    Against which WR's is this stigma? There is a stigma in general against QB's and WR's that are in Spread offenses and perhaps even more so in Leach's Air Raid offense...but just ask scouts about how little they thought of Davone Bess coming from a run and shoot offense (yes...it's still in college) and having a slow 40 time. WHOOPS! Guess some of those system WR's can play in the NFL!!!

    Would you have touched Adrian Peterson in rnd 1? He was thought to be injury prone. Wonder how the Vikes feel about getting him at a discount...especially considering injury prone players shouldn't survive in the NFL at positions where you get major collisions frequently, right?

    Why not...what else do we have to talk about over the next gazillion days!!!?

    Gut
  2. Gut

    Gut Starter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,849
    And...

    Well explained. However, is a 4th rnd pick who takes a few years to develop into a solid (sometimes slightly better and sometimes worse) player an insanely good pick? Reese has not taken OL early but he's not here anymore so it's unclear how MR feels about top OL talent at a position of need at the place where we draft.

    All of the 4th rnd and later picks come with some significant warts. Yes, Olsen and Pillar started here for a while and in some years played very well...they did not play at a consistently high level throughout there careers. Bruce is a Hall of Fame OL. Hopkins was Pro Bowl quality for about a decade. I expect the same out of Roos. See the difference?

    And BTW, please don't use Hartwig as an example. He was embarassingly bad while here but has improved enough to be a below avg starting NFL OC (which is better than I thought he'd be). Not exactly something you put on your resumee.

    Let's hope MR is more open to taking top notch OL talent is that is the bpa at a position of need!

    Gut
  3. Gut

    Gut Starter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,849
    And...

    True...I was arguing this against bigtitan who WAS arguing this and it got put into our discussion. Sorry, I'm arguing this against 3 different posters...hard to keep you all separate. But back to the point...

    Is Crabtree a good WR or not? He comes from the most insane of the Spread offenses. Is he a good WR or a product of his gimmick offense?

    What was Crabtree, Maclin, and Harvin taught and coached in college? Which routes were they taught? Which concepts do they or don't they know? If you don't know, stop saying that you do.

    I'm gonna guess that what you mean by reading coverages/adjusting to the game means they don't run hot routes or change routes vs the blitz, don't change patterns based on man vs zone coverage? If this is NOT what you meant, please explain what you do mean.

    Based on what I think you mean....it's funny how you see all of these WR's throttle down in a window in a zone and run away from man coverage. I've seen them break off patterns short when a blitzer comes and in terms of hot routes...that they fill the space left by the blitzer. All of these concepts are employed by NFL teams. Perhaps they aren't great route runners and may have to adjust there routes to whatever offense they go to since few teams run a spread offense in the NFL...but most WR's need coaching up no matter what offense they come from.

    That's why I wear glasses!

    What is your definition of a gimmicky offense? And why would that discredit him? He runs many NFL patterns (already mentioned...put on YOUR glasses) in this 'gimmicky' offense so your point is moot. It's not like Tebow comes into the huddle and goes...Harvin...get open! Funny thing about his 'gimmicky' offense.....didn't he just win 2 National Championships with it in only a few years? You'd think if it was so gimmicky...someone could stop it! OOPS!

    And everyone in the NFL is consistently hurt and banged up. It's what happens with large collisions. Has he been banged up? Sure, but still as productive (or more) than most on the planet. And how is Adrian Peterson working out for the Vikes? Guess he's not getting 'smoked' in the NFL, huh?

    Yeah...slants, outs, curls, posts, go, and drags aren't NFL patterns....OH WAIT, THEY ARE!!! If they didn't learn how to read coverage, how do they know to stop in windows of the zone...know to run away from man coverage, change routes vs the blitz and run hot routes. How do you explain what they do...run 5 yds and get open and let the QB figure it out?
  4. Fry

    Fry Hatin' is what I do.

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Messages:
    25,968
    what did davone bess do that was so special? he averaged 10 yards a catch. that's bad by titan standards.

    of course i would have because HE HAD A POSITION and was damn good at it too. percy harvin doesn't have a position AND is injury prone.

    and it's not like the guys taken in front peterson have sucked either. calvin johnson(who i would have taken ahead of AP), joe thomas, levi brown and laron landry have all been very good to great in their first two seasons.
  5. Gut

    Gut Starter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,849
    Hmmm...here's a question for you.

    If 2 wr's have the same stats...say 75 catches for 1200yds and player A got most of his stats having big games against top competition while player B got most of his killing cream puffs with not one big stat game vs top competition, are these stats meaningful in any way?

    Stats are a way to measure what we expect. If a player like Ramses Barden (who is a giant...especially vs Cal Poly's opponents) dominates a lower level of competition, it validates what we expect. If he doesn't destroy that level of competition, it sends up a red flag. If that red flag can't be easily explained, that player gets downgraded.

    Comparing stats directly is a rather useless vehicle since teams plays different levels of competition using different offenses and sometimes have a great QB or a poor one. However, if a player can PROVE he can dominate top competition, that is a good sign. If a player never does...that's a bad sign. These things matter.

    Additionally, comparing two players against the exact same competition is a decent gauge for comparison....but not the only point.

    Gut
  6. Gut

    Gut Starter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,849
    Lol...

    Point is...he's a guy who's too small, too short, and comes from a run and shoot offense so he can't play in the NFL right? I mean, he was supposed to be a later rnd pick and basically be a 4-6th WR on a roster. And what did he do? He had 20 catches MORE than Gage did. 50 catches for 554 yards isn't bad for a rookie...especially one who isn't supposed to be able to start in this league.


    So because Harvin plays 2 positions with equal explosiveness, the injury prone thing is worse for him where they can limit his contact as opposed to the running back?

    Irrelevant. You don't take Adrian Peterson AFTER Landry and Brown if you have confidence in him! And the point remains...an injury prone player who plays a position of frequent big collisions is able to not only play in the NFL, but excel!!!

    Gut
  7. wplatham

    wplatham U of M Class of 2012

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,590
    You are right about the MR point. Did he pick Hutchinson when he was at Seattle? However, Fish still gets a lot of say in who we draft, so we might find that we stick with the same tendencies anyways.

    Yes, I consider Stewart an insanely good pick because he started in his second year and he has actually received a few All-Pro votes I believe. As for Piller, Olson, and the other guys I mentioned, I'm a little skeptical about looking at Pro Bowls. Honestly, no matter how good we are we've never received a lot of Pro Bowl selections. (Bulluck has only been once!) Pro Bowl or not, we have consistently found guys in the late rounds who we will play well in our system. Even during our down years we could still run the ball.

    Yes, I disliked Hartwig as much as anybody else, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he has been an NFL starter for three different teams now.

    And of course if our guys think they've found a guy at number 30 who is going to be a very good offensive lineman for us, I'm all for taking him. I'm an O-line guy myself, so it's nice to see the big boys get their respect. I just don't think this is very likely considering the unit we have now and our past draft history.
    • High Five High Five x 1
  8. cld12pk2go

    cld12pk2go Camp Fodder

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,245
    The only good thing I have to save about Hartwig, is that he sported a bad-*** MoHawk in 2005. Well, that and that he was arguably our best offensive lineman that year.

    Our OL is VASTLY better now, and he is not missed at all...

    I am all for BPA at pick 30.

    Griff wasn't a sexy pic and most people went bananas over CJ; however, I believe the FO deserves a huge amount of credit for these awesome pics that will benefit us for many years.
  9. onetontitan

    onetontitan Fire, walk with me.

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    Messages:
    6,333
    They really need to make up for the VY pick. Oh, and the 2nd round bust heard around the world, Chris "I can't see" Henry.
  10. Gut

    Gut Starter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,849
    Um....

    Our best OL-man? I sincerely hope that is sarcasm!!!

    Gut
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.