The 2010 Official Reinfeldt is an Idiot Thread

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by TitanJeff, Mar 4, 2010.

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  1. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    That's only part of the big picture. See more details below.

    We don't sign other teams releases with the intention of them becoming starters. They are signed to upgrade our depth or be on the practice squad. If the Titans hit on a KVB or Tony Brown occasionally, isn't it worth it? Usually, it's just to add some depth or as special teams prospect as in Dave Ball, Vickerson and Hood. Each NFL team does the same.

    I'll be as concise as I can be here because this horse has been beaten to death. There are a number of factors, in my opinion, at play in deciding if a free agent should be pursued and what his value is.

    1. How will the signing impact the franchise's cap situation? Obviously, there are a number of teams, most seasons, who can't even get into a bidding war because they don't have the room. The Titans were in this situation through the 2005 season. Notice in 2006, when that dead money was off the books and veteran leadership was needed, the Titans signed Givens, Mawae, Thornton and Hope.

    2. How will the contract impact the franchise's future ability to keep core players? This is closely related to #2. Many overlook that the Titans wanted to lock up Roos, Stewart and Finnegan before they hit the market in '08. At the same time, they were negotiating for a deal with Haynesworth. Though the Titans had a lot of cap available, it was about to be spent in keeping a few players they felt were their core who would be very difficult (and expensive) to replace with another free agent.

    3. How much does the free agent upgrade the position over someone already on the roster or a draft pick? For example, Dansby. Dansby is a nice player but on the backside of his career so you have to wonder if he'll still be playing at a high level in five years. The Titans don't play the MLB every snap so his value on the Titans automatically is less than most 3-4 defensive teams. Also, the Titans have Tulloch who actually out-produced Dansby last season who still has upside. I think the Titans will focus on signing him to long-term deal instead (as they should).

    4. How does bringing in the free agent impact team chemistry? Think the Titans should bring in a T. O.? Think Finnegan would be okay with the Titans bringing in a #2 CB and paying him $2 mil more a season? I think the Titans have kept some vets longer than their production warranted because of the positives they brought in leadership and chemistry. The opposite also holds true. The Titans don't take certain draft picks because of the same reasoning.

    5. Is the free agent a good fit for the team's scheme? Read in '08 Kearse talking about why he wasn't a good fit in Philadelphia. Read Haynesworth last season talking about why his production went down in Washington. These players were asked to adapt to a scheme they where they were not as comfortable. Good franchises recognize and target players they think will thrive in their systems. KVB is about as good an example of this as I could give. Again, it's no different than in drafting here.

    6. Is the team a good fit for the free agent? Stallworth didn't want to come here even when the Titans offered more. Peppers said he wanted to play with proven vets. Vets want to go to teams they feel can get them a ring. We need to be aware that many top free agents have the ability to choose a warmer climate or play in a dome.

    7. Will the free agent continue to play at the same consistently high level or better? I think this is what eventually ended Haynesworth's tenure in Tennessee. They didn't feel he could live up to the kind of money they knew the Redskins were willing to pay. They probably knew Haynesworth's production would decline once he was paid. So far, it looks like they're right.

    To me, you have to consider all these factors and I think we see franchises, each season, who don't. These are the teams who call 8-8 a positive season where a team like the Titans calls it a disappointment.
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  2. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Old Man Tip Jar Donor

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    I particularly disagree with your assessment here.

    Instead of not re-signing those players, it could instead mean no Jamie Winborn, Rod Hood, Witherspoon, Jovan Haye, and Nate Washington.

    And I would trade them for Asante Samuel and Dansby in a second.


    And of course I wouldn't view Dansby as Tulloch's replacement, I'd view him as Bulluck's. Then I would envision McRath replacing Thornton. Also Dansby will be 28/29 this season. In five seasons he'll be 32/33. So it is the backside of his career but barring injury he should have several more high level seasons.
  3. Big Time Titan

    Big Time Titan Big Time Titan

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    You have some really awesome points Jeff.
  4. Childress79

    Childress79 Loungefly ® Tip Jar Donor

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    Jovan Haye,Bryce Fisher and Ryan Fowler are par for the course of the level turds we sign.

    KVB was a lucky break that happens once in a lifetime.

    All Riverman is saying is that when we have a need he would like us to be flexible and change our MO once in a while.

    This season we have no 2nd round draft pick. The chances of hitting on more than one difference maker in the draft with no 2nd pick are slim to none.

    We should have made a move to upgrade either the D line or the secondary.

    Players get contracts that upset the apple cart all the time. Finnegan is the big fish in our pond but do you really think he's happy to be the poorest paid corner in the pro bowl.

    He's happy for now but if we suck again he wont care how much his team mates are earning.

    Players want to see money and that their team is trying to improve. We haven't seen chit this off season even though the defence laid an egg in 09.

    We have a good offence to offset it but our defence is waiting on Jason Jones for an upgrade and that's a gamble.
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  5. Riverman

    Riverman That may be....

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    Well stated TJ. I understand and agree with each of these points. However, I believe it is to the Titans detriment to appear dogmatically opposed to explore the possibility of bringing a "first tier" free agent to fill a void created by injury or a draft choice that didn't develop.

    It is possible to bring in a "first tier" free agent (or trade) and remain budget neutral with little to no effect on the cap space. I've listed examples where successful organizations have done it. We could limit the number and amount of contracts offered to "third/fourth tier" players, such as those cut from other team's we tend to pick up for TC depth, cutting non-productive players earlier than we do (before cap deadline's), re-structuring etc.

    Yes, there are many factors involved in making the personnel choices. But successful organizations, such as the Patriots, are not so reticent to pay or retain a free agent AT MARKET VALUE when their team has a need for that player's skills. (eg- Leigh Bodden) No, that doesn't mean EVERY player deserves market value- so no need to sensationalize the concept.

    The Titan's don't have glaring needs EVERY year, so I'm not advocating picking up (or trading) for a player EVERY YEAR. I'm simply stating that when needs do arise, or obviously will when our own FA's depart, we would benefit from not being so resistant to the idea of paying market value to fill it. Room can safely be made in the few instances. (eg- A "cover" CB this year)
  6. World Peace

    World Peace n/a

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    I'm glad I stopped reading this thread on page 3.
  7. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    What I wonder here is how you know they don't? Do you honestly think they see a player who "fits" their system and don't inquire?

    What I assume happens is that any player is evaluated long before they hit the market so the Titans know whether or not they feel it's a possibility in February while they are negotiating with their own soon-to-be free agents. I also think agents/teams talk long before March 5 and the Titans get a pretty good idea of what kind of contract other teams are willing to offer.

    Maybe you feel the Titans just don't value these players as much as they should but I bet they inquire about any top free agent they feel is a good fit.

    Sure, any team can sign a Peppers and then replace eight depth guys but you still must have a 52-man roster. What happens is you fill those holes with rookies or other team's cuts. What you risk is the same thing which happened to the Titans in 2005 when many of their top players were hurt. They ended up having to play scrubs because their cap was so tight paying for the "first tier", they could not bring in quality depth.

    It's a balancing act. Look at the Titans salary cap last year.
    http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/team/tennessee-titans/salary/67047

    Notice that you have five players making over $5 mil. You have 15 or so in the $2-$5 mil range. Then you have 11 who make $1-$2 mil with the remaining 26 making less that $1 mil. I'm guessing that is the distribution ratio for most teams. Also notice that though those making less than $1 mil are usually depth player, many are starters.

    Also notice the total spending. If you want to call Bud cheap, then you need to call the Pats, Cowboys, Eagles and Colts cheaper.

    Bodden had a good season for $2.5 last year because of a bad 2008 season only got him a one-year deal. His new deal reminds me of the KVB's contract after he'd played for peanuts that first season. The Titans were willing to pay a little more for the second contract because the knew what they had and he'd overachieved that first year. I think it is very different resigning your own player when you know how he fits in your system. It's pretty low risk for the Pats as opposed to the Falcons signing Robinson.

    I don't see the Bodden signing as any different than the Titans signing Amano. Both received a decent contract. Both had played for their teams previously. Both are far from "first tier". The only difference is that Bodden went down to Houston to see if they would bite on a Robinson-type deal.

    The Titans sometimes do this when necessary. This is what exactly happened when Jacob Bell left and the Titans signed Jake Scott. Ideally, the Titans want to have a player on the roster ready to step in as with Harris replacing Mawae instead of having to go out and pay big money to a free agent. That is why these guys are drafted--to eventually start.

    A few years back, the Titans had a glaring need at CB and brought in Nick Harper. He wasn't "first-tier" but a good fit and played well most of his time here. They did it with Hope. They did it with Thornton. They did it with Givens and Mawae. These were all glaring holes which the Titans filled. They've even gone as far as to bring in RFAs in Fowler (to replace Sirmon) and Carr.

    In the case of a glaring need now (we'll use CB again) there are few free agent options. I would not call either Robinson or Bodden "first-tier" though Robinson got paid like one. Bodden may have been a good fit here. What that entire thing looked like to me was that the Pats wanted him and he wanted to stay but they could not get to a contract amount until a visit to the Texans set his value. Once that happened, he bolted back to New England without making another visit.

    Remember, there were some 200+ unrestricted free agents who are now restricted. I think the Titans must prepare to match anyone going after Tulloch or Brown. And I bet they look at some of the more cap-strapped teams in a few weeks to see if they can find a CB.
  8. Alex1939

    Alex1939 Old Man Tip Jar Donor

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    Wow!

    If that's not an example of mismanaging the cap, I don't know what is.

    Collins #1 at 8 million. Washington #2 at 7.8 million! Jovan Haye at #3 for 7 million!!!


    Talk about overpaid. :ha:
  9. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    Chris Hope, David Thornton, Kerry Collins, Jake Scott, Justin Gage, Nick Harper, Tony Brown and KVB are also among those the Titans have signed. It's like the draft. Not every player pans out.

    And also like the draft, the more you have invested in a player who doesn't pan out, the more problems it creates. See "Jones, Pacman".

    What MO? That they are not bringing in Peppers, Robinson or Dansby? That they didn't sign Haynesworth or Housh last season?

    I can't see how anyone can just generalize the Titans need to sign any big contract free agent without looking at each player/deal specifically.

    Do you sign any of those I've mentioned above to the deals they received?

    When Samuel was given as a specific example, I mentioned that Harper had just been signed the previous year and that the Titans would be Raider-stupid to bench or cut him. The response was that the Titans should not have signed Harper and waited for the shot at Samuel the next season. Really?

    Let's review the choices. The Titans either do the Cro deal, match the Falcons for Robinson or be willing to pay much more than the Pats did for Bodden who upgrades the position. Those are your options.

    Some like the Cro deal. I don't. I think the guy has baggage and doesn't tackle. I also think he'll end up costing the Jets a second-rounder and will be a free agent at the end of the 2010 season unless they pay him, at least, what Robinson got.

    I discuss Bodden in another response. I think it takes a boatload more of money to sign him than he settled for with New England.

    I fail to see where those areas of improvement come from in this free agent class. Peppers wasn't going to come here. Dansby isn't as good as our current MLB, IMO. Robinson hasn't done anything lately.

    I don't see much out there worth investing a lot in. I think the Titans will try to shop a few players or try to bring in a RFA before the dust settles. I can see the Titans drafting a DE in the first to fill that hole but going in to the season with Hood/Mouton as your only options at #2 CB spook me and I think moves will be made to prevent that from happening.

    We're still in March. There's a lot of things which can change over the next few months.
  10. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    A lot of free agents cost more against the cap the year they sign. All three signed deals last season. Once the Titans knew they were not going to sign Haynesworth, that opened up the ability to put more of those contracts in the first year.

    Wash is six-years, $27 mil. Haye is four-years, $16 mil. Collins was two for $15.

    Just out of curiousity, are we now calling the Titans cheap or overspenders? ;)
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