Rating the pass defense

They were certainly "homeless" for 3 years. Their last year in Houston, no one showed up for a lame duck team. You have already admitted as much in Memphis. And the fans still weren't turning out for their year playing at Vanderbilt (only half of the games at Dudley Field drew 40k fans). Fans didn't show up for home games until 1999.

As for having a talented team in 1998, that's a joke. Defensively we had no pass rush and the CBs were poor. Offensively they had an ultraconservative offense with no WRs to speak of.

 

That 98 team sure was untalented...????

10th in total offense and 13th in scoring offense.

14th in total defense and 12th in scoring defense.

The oilers had 29 more first downs than their opposition had against them.

In 1998 steve mcnair started every game and had one of his best seasons for total yardage.

I'm not saying they had super bowl caliber talent but they did have enough talent to go 8-8 or even better. In short i'm not going to kiss jeff fisher's butt because they won half their games.

 

A locker room scene....1998...

It was just after the 4th game, a loss to jacksonville that left the oilers at 1-3. Eddie had a horrible game and a reporter wanted to know why he played so poorly. At first eddie was composed but then he blew up. "How in the hell do you expect me to play in front of only 38,000 fans?" Then eddie began to cry. "actually the real problem is that we have no identity. I don't know who i am eddie said. Am i an oiler or something else? There is no damn oil in tennesse." Eddie's tears flowed like a river and frank wycheck emerged out of his locker with just his jock strap on to kick the reporter out. Then wycheck broke down and soon you had these two very large barely clothed men in a groin to groin embrace quivering in agony. There was not a dry eye in the house. A young steve mcnair tried to hide his tears behind his hands. Soon the whole team was a quivering mess.

Then he stepped in. His name was fisher. A grand leader of men a mere 5'10 but 6'10 in the eyes of his admiring team. "Don't worry men, we may have no home, no fans, no talent and no identity but damn it i will do everything i can do see to it that we win half our games!" The entire locker room put away their tissues and began shouting "eight n eight, eight n eight!". Then the refrain "Fish fish fish fish" echoed through the tiny vandy locker facilities.

Fish wasn't done. He then got up and gave a speech that would have made rockne seem docile. "We will win 8 games, we will run run run and pass pass pass!"

Several years later eddie george credited fisher's incredible leadership during the homeless era with keeping him in the game of football. Eddie almost took a 20k a year job rather than making millions to play on a homeless team. Wycheck went even further saying that without jeff fisher's heroic leadership he may have taken his own life.

So amazing is the 1998 oilers story that some considered it for a feature film along the lines of rocky or the karate kid staring gene hackman as fish. The name of the movie? 8 n 8 of course.

 

Those stats say nothing about the talent level. We could have had mediocare atheletes which were well coached. Prime example, if Pacman played for Belicheck and company, he probably would have been in the pro bowl or atleast light years ahead of where he is now. I am sure Woolfolk, Haynesworth, Starks, et al would also be better. I don't know for fact, just pretty darn sure. Atleast they would know how to tackle. Crennel said in his own words that is something he emphasizes. Our coahces make assumptions. Maybe there is a reason why Law, Milloy, McGinnest, Bruschi are all good players. Could it be because Belicheck and company make them better?

 

Belicheck and company would never have picked him.
Not in a million years.

In theory, I agree. I think with those coordinators they had... deadly mad coaching staff . We all know we our DC has a question mark hanging over his head. I like to think of him as Fisher's lap dog.

 

I remember one of those homeless games at Vandy Stadium against the Chicago Bears. Because the Titans were new in town and I had been a Bear fan my whole life I was kinda torn on who I wanted to win the game. However, I was and always will be a Titans fan because as I watched the game with thousands of screaming Titans/Oilers fans around me I knew this was going to be the team I would be watching and chearing for every Sunday. The game is late in the fourth quarter and the Titans have played well, pathetically most of the game but because they were playing a pathetic Bears team the game was close. The two minute drive by the Titans was totally scewed up by the coaches in time management and right down to having the right kicker in the game at the end. I didn't see anything in that game or in those years to make me think Fisher was anything special as a coach. It was the combination of young and old talent that made that team good not the coaching. The offense was purely nothing short of bush league but because our OL was good enough and we had a solid RB and good running QB we were able to score enough points to stay in most games. Our defense was solid as well. Still, there was never, then or now a game where I can say we won only because of Jeff Fisher as coach. There are a bunch of games I can say we lost because of Fisher as coach. Fisher is average and nothing more.

 

rolltide rolltide rolltide...

I got the idea you were gonna compare winning percentages when you said to do your homework and know their records. The only records for head coaches is won-loss.

As I've explained already, comparing wins and losses or even playoff percentage is a flawed argument to who is a better coach because certainly all coaches are not in the same situations with the same talent.

Case in point...Gruden rebuilt 1 team expertly - the Raiders. When he jumped ship, he went to a perennial playoff team with arguably the league's most talented (and well coached) defense. It's not exactly fair to compare him to a coach who is rebuilding 2 teams and basically can't have a high playoff percentage. This type of thinking is finding ONLY stats that support your point and ignoring the rest.

Outside of the Super Bowl - in which TB had an unusual unfair advantage because of Gruden's knowledge and familiarity with Oakland's offense, Gruden didn't outcoach anyone. Gruden is a very good coach.

Your Coughlin argument is laughable. Coughlin is also a very good HC, but Fisher and the Titans schooled him when he was the Jags HC. He deserves a lot of credit for building the Jags, but we repeatedly handed them their head and owned them so much, even Fisher remarked about how the Jags stadium was another 'home' field advantage for us. Has Coughlin made it to the Super Bowl? Has he made it nearly as far as we have? You got take into consideration quality of playoff appearances if you're gonna go that route for an argument and The Titans have been vastly superior in quality playoff appearances.

And Rolltide, please quote me where I said ANY of these HC's 'suck.' I don't appreciate you misquoting me as an addition to your argument. If you want to attack a point of my argument, go ahead. But don't misquote me and then attack your own made up point and say I said it.

Shanahan and Holmgren have one large advantage over Fisher when talking about their Super Bowl's...they had a Hall of Fame QB. Even then, Holmgren didn't win all his SB games with Favre. And even with Seattle last SB, they had more talent on the field than we had in our SB appearance. But Holmgren until last year had a mess in Seattle. Being GM, he had complete control to get the players he wanted to to fit his system. And yet, he didn't do a very good job in building Seattle til last year. Can Holmgren with without a Hall of Fame QB?

Shanahan also had a Hall of Fame QB but they didn't win it all til they had the tri-fecta of Hall of Fame QB, Hall of Fame TE, and the league leading rusher...along with an excellent OL. Can you say vastly superior talent? I can! But what has he done without Elway and Sharpe? Not much. They've made it to the playoffs only to get blown out. Is that vastly superior coaching?

I don't think so, but I never said...nor would I ever say...that they suck!

Mike Sherman is not a good HC...I'd say he's avg. Never had good personel? How about Favre in his prime...he's a Hall of Fame QB isn't he? Ahman Green wasn't one of the top 5 RB's for a few years? If you have a Hall of Fame QB and a top RB AND one of the best homefield advantages in football, you SHOULD win the Super Bowl or at least get there! Many coaches (including the Titans) have done a lot more with a lot less. If I inherited a SB team with a Hall of Fame QB and a top RB, you'd probably put ME on that list! Sherman has good stats because of what he inherited, but let's see him build a team into a playoff team....not run down a SB team handed to him.

And speaking of people having teams handed to them. Martz is a brilliant offensive coordinator. If we were talking about coordinator's, he'd be at or near the top of the list, but we're talking about HC's. He is not a brilliant HC. He also is rather avg and makes some strange decisions during games (like challenging a 6 yard completion on first down in the first quarter). Martz was also given a Super Bowl team win a strong defense and the best offense in the league featuring two of the league's best WR's, a strong OL, the MVP in Kurt Warner and perhaps the best player in the league in Marshall Faulk. That, is a LOAD of talent. To his credit, he at least got back to the Super Bowl...but that's what you SHOULD do with that kind of talent. However, he's got a little too much coordinator in him and not enough HC. I'd say he's a lot better than Sherman, but not as good as Fisher.

I didn't say any accomplishment with a Hall of Fame QB doesn't count, but you have to put it into context. I can compare Holmgren to Dan Reeves because they both had Hall of Fame QB's. Holmgren had more talent and won with it. Reeves made it to the Super Bowl a few times and got blown out. I can also compare Holmgren to Sherman. Both had Hall of Fame QB's, but Sherman actually had as much if not more talent (less D but one of the best RB's in the league) and couldn't even get to the Super Bowl...let alone win it.

So when trying to compare coaches, you have to take talent into account if you want to judge them fairly. Otherwise, an avg head coach with excellent talent (Sherman for example) will look better than a very good HC with less talent or who had to rebuild a team first (especially if you're looking at playoff percentage).

If you want to compare Fisher fairly, compare him to a coach that does not have a Hall of Fame QB and has rebuilt 2 teams. A guy like Dungy has built one team (very well I might add) but then took a coaching job with a playoff team...so of course his playoff percentage will be higher...just like Gruden's will be. And BTW, Dungy has never made it to the Superbowl even though he's had one of the best defensive teams in the NFL with TB and now has had a Hall of Fame QB with one of the best RB's, a Hall of Fame WR and a solid D. Even with that combo of talent they haven't sniffed a Super Bowl appearance. And going against a common opponent (NE), we had a chance to win the game at the end while the Colts, coming off a blow out performance against Shanahan's Broncos, got obliterated by the same Pats.

Dungy is also the guy in Tampa who has made the worst offensive hires in the game...including hiring away Les Steckel (thank you thank you thank you). Now with the Colts, his lack of input with the offense is a major problem. While Manning basically runs the offense with only 'suggestions' from Tom Moore, Manning has to outcoach the opponent's DC. While this is less of a problem when the Colts have superior firepower compared to the opponent's defensive talent, against stronger defensive teams like the Pats (or Pitt) AND a good DC...the Colts don't win! When this is repeated over and over and over, Dungy should have done something about this. Records are great...just ask Marino what records he'd give up for a Super Bowl ring.

So despite his superior playoff appearances and superior talent, he's not made it as far as he should nor as far as we've gotten with LESS talent. Again, he's an excellent defensive coach, but like Martz, he is not a good HC.

And Reid is a good HC, but he's not great. He's also been blessed with a Hall of Fame QB and one of the best defenses in the league for several years but they always got outcoached in the NFC Championship game (even when they played it at home). Ironically, his best coaching came the year they had TO but he got hurt. They made it to the Superbowl but again, got outcoached. It's understandable to get outcoached by Belicheck, but he made some bone-head coaching decisions which may have cost them a shot at winning...like not running a 2 minute offense til it was way too late.

Even Joe Gibbs - a Hall of Fame head coach for sure since he's the only head coach to create an offensive system and win 3 Super Bowls with it using 3 different QB's. But Gibbs has struggled since he came back. Despite being given the checkbook to get whatever talent he wants, they have struggled mightily. And if not for Gregg Williams being their DC, that team would have been much worse. Fisher will probably never have the same stature as Gibbs in terms of history, but he's a better HC than Gibbs since Gibbs came back.

The 2 HC's I'd rate higher than Fisher are Parcells and Cowher. Parcells is one of the best HC's of all time and I think the only to win multiple SB's, take 2 different teams to the SB, rebuild 4 teams and take 3 different teams to the Championship game. The guy can COACH!!! He also knows how to hire the best coordinators! He hired Belicheck, Crennel, Weiss, Mangini. And I think we'd all agree these guys are all good coordinators!

Cowher is a cross between Fisher and Parcells. He's been with one team and has rebuilt it a few times. He's also hired many different coordinators...some with very different philosophies on offense. But there are 2 things about the Steelers that stay consistent. They emphasize defense and the running game. Occasionally they'll have a down year or a few, but they rebuild quickly and with dominance. They've also been to the Superbowl with different QB's and won the last one with one of the worst QB performances ever in the SuperBowl. He, like Parcells, also hires good coordinators for the most part and is also willing to fire them if they are not working out.

Perhaps it shouldn't matter to football players to plsy in front of 30,000 or 70,000 fans, but it does. They are still human beings. Just like you shouldn't need to motivate a player making $10million a year, you do! So SK is perfectly correct that the team not having it's own stadium for the first few years had an affect on the team. And Fisher was wildy praised for his handling of this. Compare that to the total disarray that was the Saints this year (of course a hurricane wiping out a city is vastly worse) and you can get an idea of how Fisher held the team together. Maybe that didn't translate into 10 wins, but how many more might they have lossed?

There is a reason that equal teams head up aren't a pick em bet and that the home team gets a 3 point advantage. That's how much playing in front of your home crowd rather than your opponent's home crowd matters. How many points do you think not having a homefield at all is?

And tide, if you want to write your own fictional interpretation of the Titans, please post that in another thread marked Rolltide's fictional stories. It doesn't belong here.

Gut

 

Sox

Thousands of people around you cheering may seem like a lot of people to you, but 35k is about half the size of a sold out NFL stadium so you might understand that it'd be disappointing to play in front of such a 'small' crowd.

And that would also impact your having a homefield advantage over other teams who ARE selling out their stadiums...both from a lack of support from the fans cheering you and from a lack of noise when the other teams trying to run their offense. The best homefield advantages have to do with fan support and noise (except for Denver's mile high atmospheric challenge). Lacking both numbers and noise is a large problem. Lose that advantage for half the year puts you at a significant disadvantage over the other teams in the league.

Fisher's responsible for the coordinators he hired, but if the FG kicker is not out there and is supposed to be, that is primarily the special teams coaches job. Since Del Greco was warming up, Fisher had called for him to be ready to make a kick once they got into FG range. And later when we line up to make the gamewinning FG and it gets blocked, it's not Fisher drawing up the blocking for the field goal team.

In which games did you think Fisher was outcoached?

Gut

 

Gut, is the paperback version of that post available at amazon?
I liked this part-

Bwahahahahaha!!!:ha: