Rating the pass defense

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by TM, May 25, 2006.

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  1. Slipjack

    Slipjack Guest

    Roll Tide has his own TV program. It's called SPIN TIDE, he should be a Redskin fan because Washington is where he belongs.
  2. Soxcat

    Soxcat Starter

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    First of all I never really said I thought Fisher was a terrible coach. Fisher is an average coach and not some great coach like some make him out to be. SOmetimes he gets outcoached and sometimes he doesn't. As of the last few years he is getting outcoached more than not.
    Secondly, if the coordinators are crappy and Schwartz is playing 8 man zones it IS Fisher that should take the blame. The buck stops with him. Heck, George Bush is about 1000 times more removed from FEMA than Fisher is from the OC and when FEMA laid an egg during the hurricanes Bush took the blame. That is one area I cannot agree with your logic. I give Billick alot of credit for the Ravens having a great defense because he is the head coach but you would make the argument that he had a great DC. Sorry, the head coach is the one who calls the shots and if by delegation of authority, attitude or whatever gets the job they should get the credit. Same goes for failures. Mike Martz helped coach an UDFA into one of the greatest QBs in football for a few years and a SB and as head coach coached a 6th round pick into one of the better QBs in the NFL. That is good coaching.
    Another issue is the NFL is a very dynamic business. What a player or coach did a few years ago is almost irrelevant today. Thats why a guy like Martz is now an OC. As of late Fisher has not shown a great ability to get the most out of his players, is no genius on either side of the ball or STs and if he doesn't start to show more success is deserving of being shown the door.
  3. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    Gut...

    I'm not going to respond to every stupid point since they are the same points you have made 5-6 times. Shanahan and holmgren had a hall of fame QB ad nauseum. So did vince lombardi, bill walsh, chuck noll, don shula(3 of them!) jimmie johnson and marv levy. I guess they are not better than fisher either. It's dumb!


    You go down the list of every top coach and take some angle, not all of them consistent for how each coach's accomplishments are tainted somehow. Yeah that guy won but he had this or he had that. It's stupid!

    You once again credited greg williams for the redskin turn around and not their hall of fame head coach. It's as if williams is the head coach somehow that williams and gibbs are independant of each other.
    Can't you see the stupidity of your argument? Gibbs was smart enough to snap up williams all the while fisher hangs on to schwartz! And to make your argument even more insane is that fisher's greatest seasons came with that same greg williams as HIS defensive coordinator. Should they not count as significant accomplishments for fisher then either?

    Why are you willing to accept that bill cowher is a better coach than fisher? Based on your silly arguments here cowher is no better. Yeah cowher won a super bowl but maybe rothlisberger is a hall of fame QB. How many super bowls has cowher won without rothlisberger? And if tom coughlin is automatically inferior to fisher because he has a losing record head to head than shouldn't cowher?

    :sad2:
  4. SEC 330 BIPOLAR

    SEC 330 BIPOLAR jive turkey

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    :brow:
  5. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    The bottom line...

    There are a lot of great, very good and good head coaches out there. What makes jeff fisher so special? The list of quality coaches in this league is lengthy. Gibbs is in the hall, bellichick and parcells are locks for the hall. Cowher and shanahan have a foot in the door and dungy may be in some day. Holmgren has three super bowl appearences with 2 different teams and 2 different QBs. Coughlin's record of achievement is equal to fisher, billick has a ring, gruden has a ring. Marvin lewis is a good coach, jack del rio has 2 straight winning seasons, jim mora jr is a good coach. Sherman and martz have solid records. I just named 15 coaches! What makes fisher so special?

    In 2005 a watermelon could have coached this team to 5 wins. Fisher got us 4. I'm not joking! Take a watermelon, paint it titan colors put head phones on it and the players would have been more responsive. You prefer another kind of fruit be my guest. A pear, apple or grapefruit would have worked the same. This guy was a non factor on that sidelines, in the locker room.
  6. Brian

    Brian Big Fan

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    :spit:

    Good one.
  7. MsTitan

    MsTitan Camp Fodder

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    I have always been a Fisher supporter and while I am not bashing him, I do believe that he needs to raise his game. I believe there a group of young/new coaches who right now are close to him and after 10 years of coaching will probably be considered better.

    1.Marvin Lewis
    2.Romeo Crennel
    3.Nick Saban
  8. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    yes you did

    Fisher has one sub par coordinator, not 3. And clearly he and Reese are hoping that like Lowry, Schwartz will develop. Let's hope so! But yes, I don't give Fisher a pass for that. Then again, there are not always good DC's hanging out waiting for the phone to ring. It is extremely rare that any HC...even Parcells and Bellichek have 3 good coordinators and sometimes they make hires that don't pan out either.

    When you said he got outcoached in two thirds of our season, you're saying he's a terrible coach. Perhaps that's my misjudgement. Maybe you think being outcoached 2/3 of the time is avg. That's terrible in my book.

    The last few years we've had a seriopus lack of talent (what happens when your GM cuts 6 of the 10-12 best players on the team. Pick any team in the league and remove 6 of their best starters and tell me they aren't at a severe disadvantage! I think you guys equate good coaching to wins and bad coaching to losses. You need to take into accound talent level on a team to evaluate it's coaching. If not, you might as well count wins and losses and leave it at that.

    BTW, George Bush is one person removed from FEMA as he appointed Brown to head it. This is similar to Reese hiring Fisher. Reese is not 1000 ppl removed from how the Titans perform...he is ultimately responsible since he hired the person to run the team.

    Your logic doesn't make sense if you follow your own argument. You're saying Billick should be given the credit for the great defense and Martz (as a head coach) should be given the credit for the great offense...and yet Martz is no longer a head coach but an OC despite being involved in 3 SB's (2 as head coach) and a lot of wins. Does that tell you that he was a great head coach (but the rest of the NFL is insane not to see it) or that he's a great offensive coordinator and NOT a good HC (which is apparently what the NFL thinks of him)?

    Fisher actually has very good knowledge on the defensive side of the ball. You might remember he coached defense and learned under the great Buddy Ryan.

    Gut

  9. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    tide...

    I take that as a compliment that you aren't responding to my points. You can not argue that to judge coaching fairly, there has to be relatively equal talent. But you don't wish to be fair...you just want to bash Fisher.

    I took an 'angle' as to how to 'taint' coaches records? History will judge coaches on one thing...wins and SB's. But that doesn't equate to coaching talent. Who was a better coach the year the Bills met the Giants in the Super Bowl? Parcells right? Why...because he won or because he won with inferior talent?

    Think of a chessgame. Both players have the same 'talent' since they have the same pieces. Now, for the next game, I remove half your pieces and you coach at a disadvantage for an entire tournament. According to you, you're just a bad player because you lost and the guys who beat you (with all their pieces) are excellent coaches. If you wish, we can try this technique out and have a chess tournament to prove your point - that talent level is a 'stupid point.'

    If you think wins and losses are all that there is to the equation, you should be dumbfounded that the 'great' Mike Martz has lost his place as a HC and is now ONLY an OC. According to what you value, he has a high winning percentage, coached 2 nobody's into being top NFL QB's, has how many playoff appearances in how many years as a head coach, and was in the SB 3 times. According to how you're arguing, Martz should already have his spot picked out in Canton. So why is he immediately not given another job as a HC ala Parcells or Belicheck? If you can answer that question...you'll begin to understand some of myu 'stupid' points.

    I didn't credit Gregg Williams with the Redskins turnaround...but I think if he didn't have Williams, he might not have made it to last season when they finally did turn it around. And yes, with the offensive talent they had on offense, he did a terrible job coaching them his first 2 years. Tell me again how he did such a good coaching job his first 2 years....? Point to the evidence...

    You can't.

    It's funny, you bash Fisher for a sub-par coordinator but don't give him credit for a great one. Be consistent!

    I credit Fisher more for Gregg Williams because the Titans were the team that DEVELOPED Williams into a great DC. You might also notice we did quite well when we did have our best talent...1 SB appearance, 3 AFC Chamipionship games and several division titles. And yet, you say Coughlin did an equal job? I am unaware of Coughlin being a HC of any super bowl team nor has he gone to 3 AFC championsip games as a HC. But these are equal right?

    You might notice that I didn't say (as you misquoted again) Coughlin is inferior ONLY because of the head to head record. There are many factors involved and if you read the above paragraph, you might have an idea of what they are.

    If you read my post, you might notice that I don't say Cowher is a better coach because he won a Super Bowl. You make the argument that perhaps it's all Roethlisberger. This is silly AND irrelevant. First, Big Ben had the worst QB performance in any Super Bowl and Cowher still won....so you could say his coaching overcame the worst qb (for that game) in history. Second, Cowher's been to the Super Bowl with only a mediocre QB in Neil O'Donnell. So much for your argument...

    Since you can't be bothered to respond to my points, don't worry about responding to this and continuing this since you're only repeating yourself without actually engaging in the debate (except to name call and insult).

    Enjoy!

    Gut



  10. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Funny stuff!

    First, let's say the Titans cut Fisher tomorrow....who do you want to replace him with that is better. Giving me a list of who you think are good coaches doesn't do anything. Most good coaches don't change teams for a number of years so it's not like Parcells is waiting for us to fire Fisher so he can come in and coach the Titans.

    Second...let's look at your list. Before that, your list is supposedly of great-good coaches. What rating are you giving Fisher?

    I've already shown that Gibbs has had 1 good year so far with excellent talent. He's a Hall of Fame coach for what he did 15 years ago...not what he's doing today. I've already shown that Coughlin's achievement is not equal to Fisher's. According to your numbers, Billick and Gruden have been to one Super Bowl (as has Fisher).

    Then I like how you resort to just giving me your opinion of guys...Lewis is a good coach...so what. Del Rio has 2 winning records...WOW! Jim Moras Jr is a good coach...wow! And Sherman and Martz have good records!!! Amazing. Of these coaches, none has the resume of Fisher except arguably Martz who's been to 3 SB's....but he's the guy who lost his job as HC and can't get an immdeiate HC job. Doesn't sound like the NFL thinks he's a good HC, huh?

    My favorite argument you made is "Dungy may be in [the hall] someday." I MIGHT BE IN THE HALL ONE DAY! So might any coach including current BAD coaches. This is no argument!

    So of your list of 15 coaches...

    Parcells, Gibbs, Cowher, Shanahan, Holmgren and Belicheck will never be Titans. Of any coach remaining, they either would not be available for the Titans or they are not as good a coach as Jeff Fisher.

    The ONLY 2 guys of your list currently available are Sherman and Martz. And despite their great records and a lot of coaching vacancies...neither are currently head coaches. THAT should tell you something!!!

    If you can make a case for any coach being better than Fisher that either is available or you think will be available next year...let's hear it!!!

    And if a watermelon can coach the Titans, you should apply for the job since anyone can do it. And since anyone can do it, why don't you explain the x's and o's of how the Titans should defend the Colts successfully this year.

    Gut

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