Questionable character players-my take on it.

Boy the years do play strange things to my memory. I guess I have forgotten about McNair being in jail and convicted for DUI. Refresh my memory, when was this and how long was he in jail?

I suspect that how one feels about this particular subject is mostly a generational thing. Under 25 AG probably view P-Thug as "keepin it real", while people older see him as a dam idiot who is in the process of throwing away his life and the gifts that the Lord bestowed upon him. Of couse this same break down in generational perspectives becomes evident when you consider that the P-Thug supporters also view "saggin" in pants 6 sizes too large as a fashion statement while the rest of us just have to view it.:grrhee:

I think the idea of players being conditioned towards violence (Pavlov's dog) actually does have a lot of relevance here. Players learn that, when they get riled up (like in a game), the right way to release their emotion is to go out and hit someone (another player). Coaches intentionally get the players worked up so that they will play better. Intensity and swagger are seen as good things.

Thus, when players encounter trouble in real life (like at a nightclub), they react differently than most people do. Their first instinct is to get physical. Sometimes that means punches, other times it means shooting. The players have to hurt the other person to get the same feeling they get on the field.

I'm not saying this is excusable, and I'm definitely not saying it's the only reason that so many players are getting arrested (clearly there are other factors at play), but I think it is something that needs to be taken seriously.

That is not what conditioning is.

Pavlovs Dog was conditioned to drool at the sound of a bell.
For this to be relevant an NFL player would need a unconditioned stimulus and unconditioned response, a neutral stimulus and then a conditioned stimulus and conditioned response.

There needs to be something (unconditioned stimulus) that provokes an unconditioned response, but there also needs to be a neutral stimulus that will trigger the response, which becomes the conditioned stimulus and response.
In Pavlovs case, the bell (conditioned stimulus) triggered salivation (conditioned response).

And what you are saying about hitting on the field and punches/gun off the field are two separate acts.
For conditioning to be relevant the same conditioned stimulus would result in the same conditioned response which would be something like a tackle, not to pull a gun

The hypocrisy of the public is large with Pac. Objectively, he hasn't done much worse than MANY guys in the NFL. He hasn't been convicted of anything (that appears may change). He smokes pot- so do alot of others. We could go down a list of players that do the same or worse things than Pac and MANY of them are well loved by the public.

IMO, it is because Pac tells the world to "F.O." He doesn't need anybody- he can get the job done without them. He doesn't need their approval. Many people take this affrontation as disrespect for them. IMO, it is this attitude that has made him a survivor and one of his strongest assets as a player. It is why he is one of my favorite players.

People love to affirm their own belief systems by destroying others. It is one of the oldest and most well described/documented traits of human behavior.

I defend Pac all the time because I've seen him be mis-represented, mis-understood and be the victim (target) of a darkness in the collective public's mind.

As a second issue, he is payed to play football- not fit some "model citizen" perception that the public wants. If that is what the NFL wants, then it should be made clear in contracts with incentives/punitives as a STANDARD.

Obey the law Pac. Fight the fight.

This is a deep post. These football players are not perfect and they are not machines. The NFL has to draw the line somewhere. Yes McNair got in trouble for drinking. Rolle, Starks and a few others got in trouble for knocking the boogers out of their wives. What the NFL is looking at is repetition. If you get 1 DUI, the NFL will look in your direction. If you have 3 DUIs, you have a problem. If you put all the problems together that were mentioned in the above posts, they do not equal how many problems PacThug has brought to himself. He is the problem.
The mailman, the mechanic down the street and the others mentioned above are not in the position to be considered Role Models. PacThug was quoted as saying, "This is MY jungle". We have to teach kids that you will be accountable for your actions. Just because this is 'your jungle', does not mean you can do what you want with a Get-Out-Of-Jail -Free card.
Is PacThugs actions vs. penalties fair to the rest of the team? Would Conover or Orr still be a part of this team if they got in as much trouble as PacThug?

Conditioning may be relevant for some in terms of childhood with the odd kid living in a broken home,poverty,rough neighbourhood etc but for every one who turns out to be a person with problems, there are far more success stories of people that turn out better than the presumed stereotype.

We're also talking about men that have the opportunity to live a dream lifestyle of riches & fame. New behaviour can be learned & for the most part footballers grow up & mature fast through being part of a team & having older & wiser role models.

Guys who've been frivalous with their money & learned not to run with the wrong crowd. For the most part this nfl 'buddy' system works, over the regular season there are around 1700 players spread accross the 32 teams. Looking at it from that perspective the percentage of bad apples in the nfl is n't a significant number but their behaviour reflects on the majority & they get reported on as such.

In spite of what I just said I still wan't Pacman on the team,it's his best chance of turnibg his life around.

Uh, no! I grew up with an older brother. I was a spoiled pain in his hindquarters. We argued and fought all of the time. Mainly, because everything he had I treated like my personal little shopping mall and just took it. My family said that my first word was "MINE".

However, the summer that my brother turned either 12 or 13, something just totally changed. He stopped fighting with me. In my eyes, he turned into this grown man. I mean, I was still his bratty little sister, but he treated me different and he wouldn't ever lay a hand on me. Once when I was being particularly bratty, I heard my Dad telling my brother that I was his little sister and he was growing into a man and he couldn't hit girls anymore. He said that I was going to be practice on how to control himself and treat women when he got older.

So, what I'm trying to say is that what you typed is total b.s. A big, athletic guy who is angry and hits a woman is far worse than what Pacman has done. Brad Hopkins is 3 times bigger than his wife, Samari's wife was pregnant with HIS child and Randy is a huge guy also. Domestic violence is one of the most horrible things that permeates our society today. Working in healthcare gives me a clear view into the trickle down effects.

A man who beats his wife creates a tense and fearful atmosphere in his household. Imagine being a small child growing up in a house where your Mother gets hits by your Father. Then as the children grow up, the girls think it's a normal relationship to get beat up by a man and the boys think it's normal to hit girls.

I've said this over and over: I love Pac. On his own, he's a sweet, kind and decent man. My Mother loves him and she's a snobby socialite. However, Pac makes bad choices. Choices that build upon one another. Yea, Pac might be selling crack out of a vintage 'Lac sitting on bootleg 24's, but no dogging people's lot in life. If I were born in a project with a Mama in prison and a Dad shot when I was a baby, who's to say where I would be.

My siblings and I were born lucky, with expectations. From the time I started kindergarten, college was the goal. I never questioned it. After I got out of college and started working, I was shocked to find that some people didn't grow up to go off to college. We're all a product of our upbringing.

You are so full of hate, you need to use derisive names like PacThug. You are entitled to your opinion- now hear mine.

How is it that Pac has not been held accountable? He hasn't had a conviction. The others guys you are referencing have, or have plea bargained. Are you suggesting that persons be held accountable for charges? Are you for real when you suggest that NFL players should be role models for youth? How about parents getting involved and sacrificing a little time to help the mold the youth and their development. Educate the kids- tell them, show them how life REALLY is and how the ideals you want to shape them are reflected (or not) in the NFL. You know, Pac has made several visits to local schools telling kids to stay in school and sports and off the street. How about a quote that from him that represents positive ideals you share with Pac?

I suggest your attitude is the very example of my prior post.

Yea, I get so sick of hearing people say that pro athletes are role models. Just cause a guy is famous shouldn't make him a role model! What about parents actually talking to their kids and taking an active part in their lives and molding their development? More kids, especially in the hood can name pro athletes and the shoes they endorse and can't name 1 person on the Supreme Court or even who the governor of their state is!