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Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by Gut, Nov 13, 2006.

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  1. Titantonic

    Titantonic Camp Fodder

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    Gut landed the haymaker here. Time for your corner men to throw in the towel before any more damage is done. This fight's over....:yes:
    #41
  2. DeutschTitan

    DeutschTitan Camp Fodder

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    I understand where your coming from Gut, but my point on Colston is nothing is guarunteed in the draft. You gave plenty of examples of later round guys, but its not a sure shot your going to get guys like that. Look at Jonathan Orr, he was drafted ahead of Colston, by us, in the 6th round. He hasn't even been active for a game. Plus those guys you listed were solid, not game breakers. Also for every Colston, theres a Shifino, Hill and Berlin. You can also make a case for first rounders who have busted, but I havn't seen much of a problem with first round recievers taken previously. Also, Mike Williams was out of football for a season, is immature and overall a poor example to use. Comparing him and CJ is apples to oranges, IMO.

    I'm all for drafting defense and OL help, but why do that when we can get a bulk of that through Free Agency with all that money we have? There is no dominating DE in this draft. You could make a case for Adams, but he's more than likely going to be taken by someone who runs a 3-4 and be transformed into a Merrimon LB. As for DT, right now there's no one unless the Michigan guy declares. On the Offensive Line, we're set at tackle. The interior we could upgrade through FA or if we miss out, we can turn to the draft. However, you don't take Guards and Centers where we'll be picking. Your point about OLinemen is sound, but honestly any time you have to teach an old dog new tricks, your investment wasn't that great. That means the person you got for the position isn't capable there, but while you fill one hole, you still have another. We could possibly move down and draft someone like Michael Griffin or Laron Landry, though.

    Right now, at this point and time, CJ is the pick for us. He's got character, no personal issues, has a good background, production and fills a need. Jeff also made a great point on how someone like CJ could open up holes for us in the running game and passing game. What CJ offers us is huge and outweighs other options. However, we probably will go a different direction and if we do draft another position in the first, another guy I like is Steve Smith from USC. He's not a game breaker, but he does everything right and has good hands.
    #42
  3. Banshee2

    Banshee2 Guest

    Manningham from Mich is one, too...I'm for drafting guys from winning programs. As for what positition to draft in Round 1, I'm not quite sure there yet, but I DO agree with Gut - gotta build the D first. That's the way Reese builds Fish's teams. (note from that what you will)
    #43
  4. Titans2008

    Titans2008 Camp Fodder

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    Look, CJ is dominating against all odds. CJ is the kind of player that you want on your team. He's worth a top 5 pick unless he proves otherwise at the combine. Has anyone ever seen CJ drop the ball? I haven't. Game over.
    #44
  5. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Well...

    The difference is that you don't lose that much if a 6th rnd WR doesn't make it. You lose a TON if your top 5 pick WR doesn't excel, let alone make it. You NEED good production from a first rnd pick...even more so when that player is a top 5 pick.

    As for the guys I mentioned, Chrebet and Mason have been Pro Bowlers and I expect Colston to be this year. Not exactly chump change!

    Yes, for every Colston there are several Chifino's, Hill's and Berlin's. But they are NOT projected to be impact players...merely backups...which is generally the role they play. Top 5 picks are supposed to become perennial Pro Bowlers. That's a huge difference.

    Mike Williams is a perfect example because he too made many spectacular catches in college, is about the same size (huge) and is not known for his speed. There are a zillion successful NFL players who are immature. That is not a valid excuse unless the guy is involved in drugs or breaking the law repeatedly. Pacman for example seems to WANT to go to jail but for the most part, he plays pretty well. Plus, there are many other first rnd WR picks that bust. A simple look back over the drafts will tell you that many of the WR's taken in the first rnd are not playing at a pro bowl level...some are not even playing.

    Why draft D and OL when you can get that in the draft? Because pass rushing DE's get paid about the 3rd most amount of money in free agency per position AND you'll have to overpay IN free agency to get one. Same with OL....you can get a marginal upgrade, but you'd be paying a pretty penny to do so. There is more bang for your buck in the draft at OL. I agree there is no clear cut dominant pass rusher right now, but Adams is not too small. Kearse played much of his first season at about 255lbs and was dominant. How big is Jason Taylor, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis? If he can play, we want him. I agree that DE MIGHT be a position to grab in free agency if there is no clear cut dominant pass rusher AND a dominant vet becomes available without breaking the bank.


    Yes, the point was that would you rather have CJ and his above production at #5 and let's say a good OG with our second rnd pick OR trade down to #10 and get another 3rd giving us the ammo to move up to get 2 2nd rnd picks. Then take a Landry, the best OG in the draft and a good CB. While it isn't a sexy pick, a serious upgrade at OG, FS, and CB would do a lot more
    towards improving the wins/losses than CJ and one of the others. Is CJ gonna take our offense from about 30th to where we can score 28 points per game (which is what we need to avg winning our games by ONE point)?

    I've already shown under a best case scenario that won't happen. The D needs HELP.

    #45
  6. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    2008

    Dominant vs college does not make you dominant vs the NFL. CJ IS the kind of player I want on this team as long as his speed checks out.

    I never said CJ isn't a good player. I said we need to see his speed before you annoint him the next Jerry Rice ('with better speed').

    The main point is, with a developing rookie QB, he won't have the bang for our buck we can get with other picks/trade down options. See posts above.

    How many times has CJ gone up for a ball and been creamed by an NFL FS? Lots of guys have good hands in college. Sometimes that changes when they play in the pros. Sometimes it doesn't.

    Gut
    #46
  7. Pit Bull #53

    Pit Bull #53 Guest

    I disagree with the people that are saying that Gaines Adams has been inconsistent. I have watched the majority of Clemson's games this year, and he has been a very productive player. He went through a stretch this year where he had a sack in 8 consecutive games. They also play him in coverage and move him around a lot. If you just look how he is built, you can tell he has the frame to bulk up if needed. He has long arms and has the best first step in college. As long as he doesn't bomb his workouts, which he shouldn't because he's a great athlete, he's going to go top 5-6.
    #47
  8. Bobo

    Bobo Guest

    Derrick Mason got lots of catches and yards with our heavy running O. Hines Ward has been able to catch 80+ balls and 1,000 + yards with the heavy running O of Pitt. Gut, I applaud your effort, but all that computing you did kind of reminds me of some footballoutsiders stats that always aren't very usefull.

    If we got a guy like CJ and couldn't find a way to use him, then that's bad coaching. I'd hope Fish would push Chow to do things more like Dinger if we needed to get a weapon the ball more.
    #48
  9. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Bobo...

    You are MISSING the POINT!

    The reason the Steelers can get Hines Ward 80+ catches is BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DOMINANT RUN GAME!

    We do NOT!

    They force teams to bring up an 8th defender to stop the run which OPENS up the secondary for Ward and hurts a defense's ability to double him.

    Defenses have no such problem with the Titans because they can control our running attack due to our hole(s) on the OL. As I mentioned before, having a strong D and a strong ground attack WOULD make a CJ much more effective for us. But since we have NEITHER, we need that first more than a 'great' WR.

    Keep also in mind that it took McNair 3 or 4 years to hit a 60% completion percentage. My calculations are a VERY real possibility. Actually, it's more likely I OVERESTIMATED the potential numbers for CJ.

    As I said, the reason you don't throw the ball 40 times with a rookie QB should be obvious!

    Gut
    #49
  10. but if not this year when? CJ is the best WR to come in a long time, he has everything u could want in a top receiver maybe not the tedd ginn like speed but that is super super rare, and if we are going to get a #1 receiver it needs to be this guy
    #50
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