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I'm officially on the Jake Locker bandwagon.

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by HeadOnASwivel, Apr 27, 2011.

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  1. EdRomeo Football Fan

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    Gut-
    Good post, this at least it gives us the opportunity to discuss some game film.
    Although your main focus is on the plays you saw as negative; it does provide a good starting point for a good dicussion.

    I'll post mine from this game once I get the chance.
    I hope you're open for an in depth discussion?

    Cheers my friend, nice work:
    [IMG]

    But a few quick responses:

    I guess we'll disagree.

    I didn't see Locker throwing into double coverage anymore then any of the other top prospects.
    One of the reason Jake is a good prospect is despite his surrounding talent his production was on the same tier as Gabbert.[/QUOTE]

    Remember when I said this:
    If the quoted portion of your statements above was true shouldn't Jake have been throwing into double coverage a lot and making "very" poor throws from within a clean pocket all the time?

    I saw a typical amount of missed throws/bad throws of any of the top QB prospects.

    I didn't see WAY too many in this game.




    *Side not I can finally post images and embed youtube, so my thread if there's interest on Locker via game film should be coming soon.
  2. seafandawghawk Starter

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    Nice to look at some film. Definitely reminds me of what it's been like watching UW over the past many years. I know that Gut made several points to look at, and I'd like add a few more for context. First, that video was from 2009--September 19th, UWs third game of Sarkisian's 1st year, against #3 USC at home, and UW had just implemented Sark's pro-style offense (from effin Willingham's miserable spread offense). Also, the week before against Idaho had been UW's first victory since November 2007 (having gone 0-12 in 2008).

    I agree with Gut in that JL most needs to put in the time to make quick (enough) reads, and on that basis go through his progressions efficiently. It's certainly been the point that I've been trying to emphasize.

    When I looked over this video clip, I only saw JL miss badly on one throw, a quick slant between the hash marks. I'm not sure why that particular throw sometimes gives him trouble; but he does need to work out whatever it is that makes him inconsistent on that throw. I also saw the tendency for his throwing mechanics to degrade some when he tries to stay in the pocket and perceives it starting to falter. And as Gut pointed out, field vision and decision-making definitely do need improvement: too often in the clip he locks onto a primary target at the expense of better options. Bearing in mind that this game was played at the beginning of JL's first year of learning Sark's new pro-style offense, it's still the biggest hole in JL's game in my opinion. You might also take note of how tight the DB's are generally playing the WR's (a tendency which increased as Pac-10 teams figured out UW's strenghts and weaknesses)-- and just how much 'push' and how solid a 'wall' the O-line is able to present.

    It's a shame this video clip stops short of the 10-play game winning drive that JL engineered that afternoon to upset USC. It was crunch time, and JL made a number of athletic plays so that UW knocked off the #3 after having lost 15 of their last 16 games at that point (the whole drive is available on youtube.) I admit I'm a big (hometown) fan of the guy, and I'm not trying to talk anyone out of their reservations or skepticism either. I just don't want Tennessee fans to get so hung up about 'mechanics' that they miss the elephant in the room, which is field vision and decision-making. JL should spend his practices working those mechanics serious and hard, but then eat sleep & breathe playbook and film study as a year-round job when he's not on the practice field. He does this and personally I honestly can't see how he doesn't succeed.
  3. EdRomeo Football Fan

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    seafandawghawk-
    The last drive of the that game is on youtube.

    I was gonna embed the youtube video because I mentioned it early in response to this post:
    But, i wanna wait til after we all get a chance to digest/discuss the clip that Gut provided for breakdown,

    Btw-
    Ben Ossai has a page on youtube that has a bunch of Washington games from 2009 (all have 2 camera views)
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ossai09#p/u/3/2tvpK86rpTM
  4. seafandawghawk Starter

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    Thanks for that youtube link Ed, much appreciated. The '2 camera views' are much better for the kind of analysis that's wanted here. Ben Ossai was an O-lineman at UW during Locker's career, so his clips might hae originated from the UW atheltic department. I'm glad to have that overhead shot, and am going to check out those clips.
  5. 24 Starter

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    Yeah, those are good clips. You get to see if he's making the correct reads. I wish he had some 2010 games up though.

    ^In terms of ball speed, I will continue to go back to his release. When he throws with that 3/4 motion, he doesn't have full control over the ball. It's quicker, but it doesn't allow him to arc the ball. Try it yourself, you'll find it's much more difficult to get arc when you're slightly side arming the pass.
  6. seafandawghawk Starter

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    24, you might be right about the 3/4 motion. I'm not a QB coach (or any coach) so I have to leave that kind of stuff up to those who know it better. I have to believe that JL will take seriously any instruction that he gets about mechanical improvements.

    To be honest I'm just glad he can put UW behind him and focus on his craft minus the turmoil and upheaval that the program went through during his career there. The details of all of that can't be interesting to anyone who isn't a long-suffering UW fan. But the JL fan loyalty of some of us is tied to it, because JL could have went anywhere in the Pac-10 plus other major programs around the country, chose UW while it was sliding badly specifically to help turn the program around, and then was crappily mismanaged and miseducated through his first two-plus-redshirt years as a reward for that choice (according to local media guys like Hugh Millen, former NFL QB).

    He was in fact the turning point for recruiting, and did end up playing the biggest role in turning the program around. His athleticism and mentality were crucial to that. But he could have had it much better along the way, and definitely could have bailed before that task was completed. He endured more program turmoil and plain crap than he should have had to encounter, stayed true to his goals and loyal to his teammates, and actually succeeded by getting UW to a bowl (and even winning it) after such a collapse of the program. That's why your seeing such JL fan loyalty. And like I said, wherever the Titans are at right now, at least their organization has got it together. Locker won't be approached to help get his head coach fired for example (which he stayed out of), and will be worked with by guys who really know what they're doing. I just like his odds. But we'll all see.
  7. EdRomeo Football Fan

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    Here's the beginning of my Passing Chart for Washington vs USC 2009
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tvpK86rpTM
    Key:
    OT-On time pass
    TR-On target pass within catching radius above the belt
    IS-In position to make YAC
    -=negative decision
    +=good decision

    (1):04s GUN- Bad pocket, Good deep ball-DB had position over top so Locker threw it behind where only the WR could make play, back shoulder ball good ball placement/location+

    (2) Single Back Trips(Left)-vs Man: Top of his drop back:)17s) no one is open: (L) #1 is about to come out of his break on a deep square in is doing a stutter step :)18s) but FS is looking at WR and at Locker
    turns down risky throw(+), misses RB checkdown(-) forces an ever riskier throw to the TE on the sideline TE wheel route(-)

    (3) 1:09 GUN vs Zone Cover 2: Top of drop (1:14s) Frontside WR is bracketted in zone all defenders can see the QB & the WR very risky throw especially in the RZ(+)
    backside seam receiver is open but Locker bails before he got to the backside progression(-)
    but he also flushed out of the pocket just before the pass protection gets beat(+)
    scrambles (Right) freezes defense makes a great throw on the move to the front pylon.(+)

    I'll finish tomorrow I think, falling asleep.
  8. EdRomeo Football Fan

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    I was gonna finish the breakdown of the rest of the USC game.
    But, there didn't seem to be much dialogue from the 1st part.

    But here's Washington's(Locker's) clutch drive to win the 2009 USC game:
    overcomes a his center getting beat for a sack and his OL getting a false start both of which are usually drive killers
    [youtube]fhTjtK2EcWc[/youtube]

    Check out:
    @1:10 catches low snap keeps his poise to take something off a nice touch pass into the flat

    @1:44 Accurate throwing into a tight window

    Converts 3rd/short w/ legs

    @3:42/4:43* Scrambling, playmaking, quick release, accuracy arm strength on display on this throw
  9. 24 Starter

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    That's not cover 2, I'm positive they were running cover 1, with zone underneath. They did that all the time under Pete, especially in the red zone. They loved leaving Mays out there by himself to read the QB.

    Here's the problem though. You say he didn't have time to get to the backside, but his first read should have been the seam route anyway. He should have read the defense pre-snap (which was pretty clear to me, they didn't change to something else post-snap), and watched for the CB to squat or follow.
  10. EdRomeo Football Fan

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    You're right about the defense it is Cover 1 zone under.

    For me I'm looking at the game as pro projection and not as a true game grade. And in general since most college prospects don't even have full field progressions, I'm not going grade a guy down for missing a pre-snap read. To me its like losing points for getting an extra credit question wrong.

    And I think its very presumptive to specultate about what the pre-snap reads since we don't know the playcall.

    After the fact its clear that the backside slot receiver gets open on the seam.
    But, in the pre-snap phase I don't think there are any glaring tells that would cause him to alter his progression from the play as called.

    Pre-snap I see a Cover 1 or Cover 3 w/ an off man at the corners.
    Post snap it was, like you rightly pointed out, single high the zone under.

    But, even if he reads the slot-seam first the middle linebacker is zone dropping but he's also reading the QB they all are and the would have taken the seam away if that where his progression started.

    Oh, I didn't he didn't have time I said he bailed on the play before getting to the backside seam and I graded that part of the play a negative.

    The frontside concept was flat/slant a staple of even youth passing offenses.
    And I can understand JL turning down the flat route, I can understand not wanting to force the slant b/c although its there early he would have to throw right past the flat defender helmet.

    Because he followed his progression on the frontside play the zone defenders are shifting to his eyes/helmet and he had effectively moved the middle backer and uncovered the slot seam IF he would have only got to his next progression the backside seam.

    Its a problem common with athletic QBs especially ones that don't trust their pass protection, they bail on some plays and start playmaking.
    And although missing the backside seam was a negative the rest of the play shows off his playmaking ability.
    I would love to see that another angle of that catch by the pylon it looked close.


    Good discussion.
    Did you look at the final plays from the drive as per our previous discussion?
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