Houston...err...Tennessee, we've got a problem!

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by Gut, Aug 21, 2006.

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  1. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    Jeff...

    You are wrong! If you honestly think that this team has that little talent up front then you need to be calling for the firing of reese now! We used 2 2nd rd picks, a 3rd and a 4th on the D-line in the 2004 draft. Are you sitting here in august 2006 telling me they can't play? Then the guy who drafted them needs to go!

    You said that we had talent and experience deficiencies. Really? The place they were running the ball(right) has pro bowl player in his 6th season, a linebacker in his 5th season and a safety in his 5th season. All by the way who have been signed to long term contracts through 2009(KVB, thompson) and 2010(thornton). If these guys are not talented enough we are in big trouble because we have commited to them long term! They obviously have plenty of experience.

    Don't get me wrong i appreciate an opinion that is not just schwartz sucks but i can't accept that this team doesn't have the talent. We are only starting 3 second year players and no rookies and many long time vets with 5 or more years experience. We should be good now!
     
    #41 RollTide, Aug 22, 2006
  4. Vigsted

    Vigsted Starter

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    Actually that's not so hard to understand, especially if you've played yourself. When players don't have a scheme or strict responsibilities to follow, they'll start to freelance and when a player starts to freelance he starts to skip on his fundamentals.

    Case in point, a backside linebacker (ie. a linebacker away from the flow of the play) is taught to shuffle down the line scrimmage to take away the cutback, however if a player isn't instructed to eliminate the cutback he'll just chase to the point of attack, and most likely overrun the play.

    Same goes for the defensive ends, if they're not told anchor and look for reverses, bootlegs, etc. they are more likely to just chase down the line of scrimmage on the fake.
     
    #42 Vigsted, Aug 22, 2006
  7. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    Let me try and clear it up...

    If we draft player X....we know he has talent because we've seen his college tape and seen his athleticism, but we don't know how he'll take to coaching. So his first coach works with him with 3 possibilities...

    First, he learns the technique and improves...

    Second, he doesn't learn the technique and doesn't improve (or he learns the technique but free lances so no real improvement).

    Third, this confuses him and he gets worse and never 'get's it!'

    If player X has result one, learns the technique and gets better, we know the player can do what he needs to do and it's a question of coaching to get him to do it.

    If this player then makes steady progress and becomes a Pro Bowl player (one of the top players at his position), we know he has really learned the techniques he needs to be successful and allow his talent to flourish.

    If his coach then leaves and a new coach comes in and his technique starts to err...are we to believe it's the player's fault or the coaches fault?

    According to Gregg Williams, if mistakes are happening on the field, it's because you're letting them happen. We define mistake as alignment, technique or responsibility....not talent. If you line me up against Bulluck and I play the correct technique but he still knocks me into oblivion, that is a talent problem.

    To bring our example back into reality, Bulluck didn't used to have this problem but I'm seeing it more and more...and not just from him....from many players. If there is a technique breakdown across many players, there is a coaching problem.

    If everyone on the D played with correct alignment, technique and form except one guy, we'd point to that player and say get in line. That is a single player problem.

    The most obvious signs of coaching problems are when it repeatedly happens to a player it didn't used to happen to and when it crosses many units (not just DL, but DL and LB's and Secondary).

    If only the LB's were messing up, we'd know McGinnis was a problem for example.

    But I'm seeing this across the entire defense...DL, LB's and secondary and that points a finger at the DC.

    Hopefully that clears up where I'm coming from.

    And BTW, if it was a talent thing, we'd see guys play the correct technique and take proper angles, but just not able to make the play. Of course that could also be a tackling issue which we've had quite a bit of the last couple years under schwartz too. Our D used to be an excellent tackling team. Now we have more speed, but bad technique.

    Gut










     
    #43 Gut, Aug 22, 2006
  10. Blazing Arrow

    Blazing Arrow The 12th man

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    Ninja Posting today

    Hey! Some of do not have internet at home right now and have a board meeting to prep for. It is hard to read 1/2 page posts without being spotted. :irked:
     
    #44 Blazing Arrow, Aug 22, 2006
  13. Broken Record

    Broken Record Biscuit Eater Staff

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    That's what Gut is famous for! Commence munching!
     
    #45 Broken Record, Aug 22, 2006
  16. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    Oh, I totally agree. That's what teaching/coaching is about.

    So when a six-year vet makes a mental error he's been coached on since high school football, it's his coaches fault when he doesn't execute?

    I'll buy that to a certain degree. But if the coach is teaching that technique and the player isn't performing it on a consistent basis, then I point to the player as the problem. It's a talent or experience issue or the player just isn't willing to do what it takes.

    Take Haynesworth, for example. Washburn talked about how Haynesworth was very gifted from a physical standpoint but would not make the step to becoming an elite DT without practicing better technique.

    So Albert clearly knows, from a technique standpoint, what it will take to make himself better. Yet he hasn't taken that step consistently and, as a result, never has reached his full potential. Is it Washburn's fault when Albert never makes the Pro Bowl?

    Haynesworth remains a better than average DT because of his athleticism so no way you get rid of him. But who do you blame for the him not being technically strong?

    I think that is an over-simplified comment. The example given was Bulluck using poor technique. Here's a Pro-Bowl caliber player making an error. We want to blame McGinnis for his mental lapse? Do we give McGinnis the praise when Bulluck makes a great play?

    Coaches are teachers and motivators. In my line of work, I do the same. Some listen, work hard to do what is suggested, and benefit from it by improving. Others rely on their raw talents to get by and never achieve what they could have if they'd applied theirselves more. They never fulfill their potential. Am I to blame for that? Maybe. But the bulk of the responsibility must be placed on the player.
     
    #46 TitanJeff, Aug 22, 2006
  19. Gut

    Gut Pro Bowler

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    Not quite what I'm talking about TJ...

    TJ,

    There is a big difference between a player who never uses correct technique (Haynesworth for example) and a player who has gone years with good technique and then under a different coach doesn't hold that good technique.

    Some players rarely use technique and never reach their full potential. We can argue all day about who's fault that is. But that's not what I'm talking about.

    No player is perfect. Even awesome players will make an error here and there. Great coaches will stay on top of them to severely limit those errors (to the best of that player's ability).

    I used Bulluck as an example because he rarely would make technical mistakes before Schwartz got here. Now that he's making them with some frequency (not a lot, but nearly every game) it IS alarming. Worse, is that many people are taking bad angles to the ball.

    It's virtually impossible that the 6 guys who were in on a particular play all decided on their own to take bad angles even though it's been hammered home time and again by their individual coaches and by the DC.

    I'm a teacher and as such, when people make errors, I need to get them fixed. I can't let it slide and comment after a performance how they made mistakes I didn't address in rehearsals. If you fix them in rehearsals, sure there will be the occasional error, but the whole Orchestra isn't gonna play out of tune. If they did, it'd be my head on the chopping block, not theirs.

    Understand?

    Gut
     
    #47 Gut, Aug 22, 2006
  22. Riverman

    Riverman That may be.... Tip Jar Donor

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    When a TEAM (or unit) and not just one player is making technique errors, then absolutely yes- the coach is responsible. Likewise when a TEAM, and not just an individual, executes well the coach gets the credit. Case in point- Patriots.

    I don't think it is oversimplified at all to place the responsibility on the coach. That is what one part of what their job is about. If a certain player doesn't "get it" technique-wise, another part of the coach's job is to staff it with somebody who does. The coach is also responsible for making the administrative calls to produce positive results. That why they are paid their salary. The players are paid to make the plays. Different players have different play-making skills, therefore they are compensated differently.
     
    #48 Riverman, Aug 22, 2006
  25. dg1979us

    dg1979us Pro Bowler

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    Wouldnt technique aspects be more on the position coaches rather than the coordinator? Schwartz job is to more game plan and call plays. If guys dont know how to tackle, or have shotty footwork or whatever, then the position coaches need to be addressed more than the coordinator.
     
    #49 dg1979us, Aug 22, 2006
  28. Jwill1919

    Jwill1919 Coach

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    Not true Dg.. A defense takes on the mentality of it's Coordinator, he sets the tone. The position coaches just implement what the DC hands down to put the whole grand scheme together. It is the the DC who runs practice and motivates his players, and makes sure that what he sees on the field is what he wants out of his defense wether it be gang tackling, flying to the ball, correct pursuit angles, etc. This all occurs in practice, with a certain tempo established to create this "synchronized havoc", that is set forth by the DC, who should just as quickly get in someone's face for not putting forth the effort, or sit someone down instead of never taking his eyes off the clipboard. It is more about attitude and fire, the best defensive coordinators, weren't necessarily the brightest, but they were ferocious and relentless with their pressure. As Chris Hope so eloquently put it, "when you get hit in the mouth, you either run away or you fight back," we haven't fought back in some time now and I think this is a direct reflection of the mentality set forth from the DC.
     
    #50 Jwill1919, Aug 22, 2006
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