Haynesworth to test free-agent market

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by Daves not here, Feb 18, 2009.

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  1. Chapparal97

    Chapparal97 Grumpy Old Fart

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    Sorry, I'm not saying we should change it to a 3-4. I guess my ideas may be misleading. I'm just thinking that Cecil is not going to be the typical 4-3 coordinator. I'm thinking he's going to mix it up more than Schwartz did because Fat Al won't be here. This whole thread is about Haynesworth, right? If we lose him, what will happen? I'm throwing out ideas and possibilities.

    The only people who really know what will happen are MR, Fisher and the coaches.
  2. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Well...

    I agree there is nothing wrong with it...but the Titans do sometimes overpay though I think MR is a lot better at locking people up early and therefore keeping our cap in good shape! We overpaid for Gage and are currently overpaying for Bironas. However, we did save a lot of money extending our OT's and Finnegan! :)

    At this point, no, I wouldn't expect him to sign before getting offers in free agency. The Titans aren't offering him anything close to the highest paid DL, so why sign the deal you want BEFORE getting to free agency? His 'price' is unkown. AH said his AGENT said he wants to be the highest paid player...AH didn't say that. He sounds like he wants to get paid, but also wants to stay in Tenn. I agree, the Titans will need to at least exceed Jared Allen's deal to keep him...at least. Say...75mil and 35mil guaranteed. If AH wants 16+...goodbye! One report said the Titans supposedly are willing to offer him as much as 12mil/yr...but who knows.

    Only mentioned that the Bucs think he's there best DT so they didn't let him hit the market.

    Your point was that the clubs don't have the leverage. I'm saying the opposite. The clubs have either signed their best free agents or tagged them. Hence, the list I gave.

    Actually, that deal can escalate to $50mil...and his $28.5mil guaranteed over the first 2 years means he's avging $14.25 per year...at the moment! If it escalates, he'll just be cut before year 3...they aren't gonna pay him $16.6mil I don't think.

    Of course he wouldn't have had the season he had...but the likely possible outcomes were that he signs at some point, holds out for awhile and comes back and plays, signs and gets traded, or signs for other incentives, or signs a long term contract. Virtually all of these scenarios are better than where we are now. Yes, it probably would have hurt us a bit last season, but he would have come back still playing for a contract so it would have been in his best interest to come back and dominate.

    But THAT is the point. You can't exchange a great season and losing him for nothing vs say half of a great season and getting 2 first rnd picks (if he doesn't stay). And that's probably worst case scenario. You can't mortgage the future for a slightly improved chance at the SB. That's exactly HOW we got into cap hell with Floyd!

    I would expect AH to play more like 70-75% of the snaps (and this would be one of the incentives in his contract). For me, $13mil/yr is the line in the sand. I'd keep him for $13mil or less...especially if there are incentives built in (as part of that money - not ON TOP of that money) and it's designed to take max advantage of the uncapped year. He is a huge difference maker and really is THE reason we are able to play the defensive style we do. We get pressure with the front 4 because of him. We're able to keep 7 guys in zone coverage and force turnovers because of him. For Jared Allen money, I'd keep him. 13mil a year will sound kind of cheap 4 years from now and he's certainly more of an impact player than Asomugha!

    Gut
  3. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Read carefully...

    The difference is I said Robertson might be an alternative...as in if we lose AH, he might be a guy we could sign. NOWHERE did I say he'd give us similar production. NONE of the FA DT's can do that. So if you don't have a guy who can be close to AH, who MIGHT you sign to take some of the edge off? That was my point.

    Julius Peppers is a dominant DE who - if he was a free agent - I would have gone after if AH wouldn't stay. Would Peppers come here for 12mil a year? No one knows...but he'd be worth a shot. This whole business about wanting to play as a 3-4 LB is his way of saying 3-4 teams should want him too because he'd be willing to change positions. If you heard his interview at the Pro Bowl...he basically said (not a quote)...that he'd play in a 4-3 or 3-4 D...but basically wants out of Carolina. I think he doesn't think Carolina is a real SB contender and he wants to play for one. We ARE one!

    Why do you keep mentioning Jones waiting in the wings? He's a 3 technique DT...he doesn't take on double teams well and neither does Brown. Jones will basically turn into Brown - hopefully. He allows them to not re-sign Brown. But Vickerson is the only DT over 300lbs and he's not great at taking on the double team either though a slightly better run defender. So we have no one on the roster who can give us similar results to AH NOR is there a FA DT who can give us similar results to AH. So if you keep repeating this mantra...I think you're wrong and have given you detailed explanations as to why I think so.

    If you listened to Cecil, he said they built this defense and system and he wants it to remain the same. He might have some different tweaks facing different opponents, but YOU are talking about a mass overhaul of the system (going to a 3-4) which they ARE NOT doing. Hence, mentioning Clay as a OLB for us in 'our' 3-4...is pointless. And the reason the 'experts' won't tell you about Matthews as a rush 3-4 LB for us...is that we don't play the 3-4 and currently don't have plans to do so...according to our Defensive Coordinator. Maybe he's just fooling us all til the draft...

    Gut
  4. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Well...

    Well...if your idea is that going to a 3-4 would eliminate our need for AH, it's actually the opposite. Our OLB's are too small to play OLB in a 3-4 scheme, KVB is not able to play OLB since he doesn't drop into coverage and is too small to play DE in a 3-4 system. Jones and Brown could play RDE and LDE in a 3-4...but we have no one who can effectively play NT, don't have OLB's who can play OLB in that system and have no place to play KVB. So now we'd be creating 3 holes instead of one in the 4-3 D. And while far from ideal, Vickerson and Jones platooning at Haynesworth's spot wouldn't kill us...whereas we don't have any realistic options in a 3-4 D.

    If we lose AH, the options are to go with Vickerson/Jones platoon at minimum. We could sign a decent free agent DT who could help out there...especially vs the run, or we can draft a DT. It'd cost too much to trade up for Raji and Jerry is a DT in the mold of Brown and Jones - so we don't need him. Brace is probably the best fit and could be had at the end of round 2...but he's still far from AH. But as far as addressing that specific position, those are the options.

    Since it is unlikely we can get close to AH's production at that spot, they may look to improve other spots (WR, OL, CB, LB) in order to try and make up some of the difference. The problem is, outside of getting another great pass rushing DE, our style of D won't be as effective since we won't get as much pressure with our front four...especially on first down plays.

    Hope that helps explain this more...

    Gut
  5. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    If his agent wants him to be the highest-paid DL, then Albert wants to be the highest-paid DL. Haynesworth has no incentive to sign anything the Titans present so why bother even making a serious offer until late next week?

    I fully agree.

    The Titans did just that last year after attempting to get a deal settled before the tag date. I'm not among those who think the Titans would have gotten much out of Haynesworth this season if they hadn't have agreed to an incentives contract. The worst thing which could have happened would be a lengthy holdout and then AH playing getting injured and/or not being close to 100% until mid-season.

    Remember, Haynesworth said if the Titans didn't do it, they would not get a shot to sign him long-term. So they lose AH either way but, at least, they got a great season out of him last year.

    Allen averages $12.21 mil per season. $32 mil is guaranteed. I've not seen how his was structured but I assume that year's five and six have a much bigger salary. If AH wants more than that, I think it's going to have to have a bonus after year four or something like McNair had which forces both sides to rework the deal.
  6. Chapparal97

    Chapparal97 Grumpy Old Fart

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    GUT.........I'm not even going to paste your quotes because you aren't reading or comprehending what I post.

    Please, I even said it on #101 and other posts here that I'm not suggesting a change to a 3-4. How hard is that to comprehend? I'm saying Cecil may be more apt to try different looks as needed. He may be more open to (for lack of better term) "gimmick" alignments. Less dependent on a huge, bulk presence in the middle. Is that clear this time?

    Now.......If we lose Fat Al and his bulk, don't you think that the D will need to adjust? Our DE's won't be around forever, same with our LB's. The DT's are on the smallish side, but still adequate and get paid a helluva lot less than AH. Do ya think that we could possibly use a hybrid on the line who can play both DE and LB? Fill a spot as needed? Why do you have each player glued into a single position? This is not 1970.

    I believe that MR will draft the best player available or trade up for a versatile player, NOT a one dimensional player.
  7. TBC_titan

    TBC_titan Camp Fodder

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    I cannot read or hear Tank's name without thinking about that Bang cartoon that came out right after Vick got indicted; the one with Vick, Tank, Cincy's CHen, Pacman and T.O.
    "Is dey too much sunshine comin' awf mah guns?"
    :ha::ha:
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  8. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Huh?

    Yes, if Haynesworth has 2+ months to get himself in peak shape...that is plenty of time...especially since he knows he's playing for a contract and not hanging out in Dunkin Donuts!

    Secondly, if he's dominant the 2nd half of the season...basically finishes as dominantly as any player in the league...you don't think anyone would want him??? Let's put it this way...if Julius Peppers holds out for half the season and then has 7 sacks his last 7 games...he's not a dominant player because he didn't have over 10 sacks on the season???

    And why would he be a free agent? Under my scenario we could still sign him long term or if he wants too much money, we could tag him and keep him or let him explore trade options with a minimum return of a 1st and 2 3rd rnd picks.

    And your theory that he wouldn't play well because he might get tagged again is silly. Ultimately, he is PLAYING FOR A LONG TERM contract. The best way to hurt yourself is to show another club that you're willing to tank your play if you're unhappy. Look at Manny Ramirez...one of the best hitters in baseball. Virtually EVERY team that can afford him should be courting him. Instead, he's the one who's waiting to see what teams are willing to take a CHANCE on him and they don't want to sign him long term because of how he got out of Boston.

    And frankly, based on 07, AH would get tagged or sign a long term deal. He and his agent can say...if you don't do this we wont sign long term...but that's stupid since his goal IS along term deal. And even if he stuck to his guns, we could slap the tag on him and trade him...again...for a first and a couple of thirds or better!

    And BTW, there is a date at which we can no longer sign him to a long term contract, but he can sign his tender whenever...I believe.

    Gut
  9. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Chap...

    I'm not comprehending? I'm addressing everything you've been posting...as I will below. To make it more clear...I'll put your statement in quotes...

    Please define what you mean by gimmick alignment...specifically. FYI, the only 'gimmick' alignments used in the NFL really are for pass rushing downs where the Steelers/Ravens/Chargers/Pats have half the front 7 moving around to try and confuse the blocking scheme and so they can get excellent pressure with a 4 man rush due to the confusion caused. However, we won't have a problem on passing downs since we have 2 pass rushing DT's and 2 pass rushing DE's. Our problem is we will have a hard time stopping the run between the tackles because neither DT is good at keeping the double team from chipping to our smallish MLB. You can't run gimmick alignments to stop the run...you can only add players to the box (like dropping Griffin or Hope down) for an 8 man front...which will weaken the pass D. So I don't see this as a good solution, really.

    The only way to combat that without changing personel is to add an 8th player to the box...which will make us more susceptible to the big playaction passing play...OR changing personel (already discussed)...or altering the style of the defense. We'd have to do more slanting and pinching...which again will open us up to big passing plays out of playaction and take us away from what we've been trying to do the last 4-5 years. Suggesting we adjust is fine...but HOW is the problem. 3-4/gimmick alignments are not a viable solution. As mentioned, the other concepts take away from what made this defense very good.

    Not sure what 1970 has to do with anything...but your suggestion for having a DE/DT tweener is what we ALREADY have in Jason Jones. He's big for a DE and small for a DT. Unless he gets very strong and learns how to blow up a double team at 280lbs - unlikely (vs 2 guys who probably outweigh him by 30+lbs each) we have to upgrade personel (get a run stuffer who can stack a double team), change our D (completely change what we do with our DL), or play a lot more 8 man fronts or blitz a lot more - which goes against the concept of the D. The main REASON why our D has been so good is because our front 4 - especially AH - disrupts the blocking schemes in the running game and gets a good pass rush with 7 in coverage playing zone. We won't be able to do this if we have to live with 8 in the box to handle the run. The Colts do this to some extent with their 2 supreme pass rushing DE's...but you know how many problems they have stopping the run because of their small DT's...

    Why do I have a player 'glued' to a position? Typically teams draft players to fit roles on their D. The best 3-4 teams draft a huge run stuffing nose tackle. Why? Because it is what is needed for that D to work effectively. They also draft DE's in the 290-300lb range in order to occupy blockers - not rush the passer. They do this so the concept of their D can work. Give the Steelers KVB and Kearse to be their DE's and their D wouldn't work. They don't fit that system. A good 4-3 D needs at least 1 big DT who can handle the double team.

    The versatile player...as in - a dominant DT vs the run AND pass is very hard to find. We don't have the firepower to go get Raji. Where we pick, the players are more one dimensional or more risky or have lower upside. For example...Jerry is a good pass rusher, but not a good run defender. DHB is an excellent deep threat but doesn't run good pass patterns...so he's more one dimensional. Percy Harvin is extremely versatile, but he's a higher risk player.

    Gut
  10. Chapparal97

    Chapparal97 Grumpy Old Fart

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    GUT....Dude, you've probably written 5,000 words on this thread alone. I'm not even reading your stuff anymore. All I see is blah, blah, blah by now. Knock off the term papers......You're boring.

    P.s....What I have seen, I still don't think you get what I'm saying.
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