Better value CJ in rd 1 or Rice in rd 2..not close!

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by RollTide, May 27, 2008.

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  1. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    One more thing...

    A point often overlooked is WHO the rb is running against. If the D is in nickel, they have 1 better pass defender (nickel back) but also one less good run defender. Not only that but spreading that nickel back further away from the box (than where a typical outside LB aligns) creates more 'daylight.' It is one of the main reasons run and shoot offenses almost always produce 1,000 yard rb's who frequently aren't that good in normal sets.

    CJ does not need to prove he can run out of 2 wr sets. He only needs to be able to do dmg in 3 wr and 4 wr sets vs nickel and dime d's. As mentioned before, if we come out in 3 wr, 1 te, 1 rb and the d has a 4-3 d...WHY would you run into better run d personel who are weaker vs the pass?

    Since CJ is a breakaway runner, our goals should be to get him outside as much as possible and create as much daylight for him to run in (mostly vs nickel and dime d's) and against weaker run d personel.

    And BTW, Westbrook, M.Faulk, Tiki, and LT all caught passes lined out wide as a 'wr' the last couple of years. The key is that they weren't defended by cb's...but rather LB's or s's. Even Bulluck (who's a good pass defending LB) has been beat on the outside by LT.

    I would hope to only see White and CJ in the same formation on short yardage plays where the defense has 2 problems. If they pinch to stop White up the middle....a pitch to CJ running to the outside will be VERY hard to stop. Secondly, having CJ lined up at short slot (tight to the box) allows a devastating play...double option and double option pass. Young could hand off to White up the gut. He could fake to White and hand off to CJ on the end around. Or he could fake to white and reverse spin and run down the line and either keep it for the FD or pitch it to CJ. Once teams are worried about those 3 options out of the same formation, Young can fake to White and reverse taking to steps down the line...but rather completing the option, stop and throw it to Crumpler who is now wide open in the endzone.

    Another option is lining CJ up at FB in an offset I. White heads straight into the line and CJ breaks to the flat. Fake the handoff to White and pitch it outside to CJ. Many teams with rb's like CJ use this play with great effect.

    The kinds of situations lend themselves well to utilizing both backs effectively. I would not be thinking to stick CJ in at rb with a FB against a 4-3 D. He's not really that kind of runner and the defense gets their normal run d personel.

    Hope that adds a little insight. If anyone who saw the Lions with Barry Sanders before and after the run and shoot offense would notice big differences in how effective he was (not in total yards, but in consistency). With a run and shoot offense (fewer run defenders and more daylight), Sanders consistently picked up good yardage. In a traditional set vs 8 in the box, he sometimes led the league in stuffs (stopped behind the line) and would go nowhere most of his carries. He'd have 2 breakaway runs (when he faked out half the D) and have 140 yards on 2 carries and -10 on the other 20 attempts. Same total yardage and ypc, but one leads to a much more effective offense.

    OK, so that was a lot more than ONE more thing...

    Gut
    #61
  2. Alpha-Centuri

    Alpha-Centuri Where art thou, VY?

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    i always got a kick out of Barry Sanders stat sheet...

    Run Left 2 yd gain
    Pitch Right -2 yd gain
    Run middle 1 yd gain
    Run Right 64 yd TD

    Rinse and repeat
    #62
  3. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    Gut you don't know that. At this point it is just theory. Just like it was theory that bush was a break away back and he is not. Just like the theory that roby would be a big play WR and never was.

    And alpha shame on you mentioning barry sanders in a CJ discussion. CJ can make those types of moves in his dreams only.
    #63
  4. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    Gut confusing real nfl with madden again. :sad2:


    Why does CJ need all these trick plays and formations? If he is worth a crap we ought to be abkle to just line him up in our regular offense and go. You guys are making my point for me talking about lining him up wide or running trick plays. How about we hand it to CJ and he runs for 5 yards a clip. :sad2:
    #64
  5. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Tide...

    In point of fact, I DO know what kind of runner he is since I've looked at his stats. He's not a plodding 4 yard battering ram is he? No. You're confusing style of runner with automatic success in the NFL. No one knows if he'll be successful in the NFL, but both he and Bush ARE breakaway rb's.

    Why can't we mention Barry Sanders in a CJ discussion. It wasn't being said in the context that CJ is as good as Sanders, but rather Sanders (and most 'breakaway' backs) run better out of a 3-4 wr set to create more space and let them play vs lesser run defenders. Sanders was used to illustrate the point because he's one of the most elusive backs in NFL history.

    And for a guy who hasn't seen CJ play, you make a lot of comments about what he can and can't do without you having any clue. Do you think that's smart?

    Gut
    #65
  6. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Um...

    So when the Niners lined Jerry Rice up in the backfield to create mismatches...it's just a gimmick and shows he can't play? Or is it SMART? And when the Niners put Rice in the slot to put him in motion (and sometimes release behind another WR) to make it harder for the opposing team's best CB to bump him...gimmick or SMART?

    The general rule is to put players in positions to succeed. CJ is not a Lendale White RB and never will be. Lining him up as a battering ram would not be putting him in position to use his greatest asset - speed. Using him in formations with fewer run defenders is smart. Using him to create mismatches for our passing game is smart. Making the defense choose between containing CJ on a pitch or defending White up the gut is...SMART!

    Why do you bash good tactics? According to your theory, Vince Young shouldn't be a running QB...he should just sit in the pocket and throw?

    Brian Westbrook must stink if the Eagles have to line him up all over the place. Same with Tiki Barber. Same with Marshall Faulk. Oh wait...those guys are excellent players. I guess your opinion's not working so well when it comes to putting players in positions to succeed or create mismatches.

    And BTW, the play described above was first seen by the RAMS (first time I saw it in the NFL) with Faulk lined up at FB. Since then, many teams have used it...most quite effectively. So again, what you think doesn't match the facts. And BTW, the Titans have run that play previously as well.

    So this is directly from the NFL although if you're smart, you'll use it in Madden!

    Gut
    #66
  7. Soxcat

    Soxcat Starter

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    Actually he doesn't. If our passing game can get on track all we need is a 3 WR set with CJ in the backfield. Young effectively gives the defense another running threat they have to spy and Crumpler creates a mismatch opportunity. If the defense shifts into a dime because of our speed on the field (3 WRS and CJ could split out) the middle is weak against the run. We can run quick hitters or draws or go off tackle to Crumplers side If the defense stays in a 4-3 or even a nickel you still have Crumpler or CJ getting guarded by a LB because the 3 WRs take up 3 DBs.
    #67
  8. Gut

    Gut Starter

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    Yeah...

    :truedat:
    :yes::yes::yes:
    #68
  9. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    Read soxcat's post. CJ's success is based on something everyone else will be doing. Young's threat as a runner, crumpler's ability. The defense staying in a 4-3 even though we have 3 Wrs out there or over reacting into a dime.


    Can't the guy just run under any and all circumstances?
    #69
  10. RollTide

    RollTide All-Pro

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    Gut just invoked the name of jerry rice in this discussion? I just won!
    #70
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