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Better value CJ in rd 1 or Rice in rd 2..not close!

Discussion in 'NFL Draft' started by RollTide, May 27, 2008.

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  1. The Playmaker pineapple pizza party

    Brown
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    What's the deal with rep?
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  2. Gut Starter

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    Well...

    First off, these guys are apples and oranges in terms of what they do at RB. CJ is the speedy homerun hitter who is a good pass catcher and returner. Rice is nearly the opposite. Rice has good speed, but not fantastic speed. He IS an excellent runner though (think Maurice Jones Drew) but doesn't have good hands. So I think the Titans were looking for a fast change of pace guy who could catch. While neither is what I'd call a good blocker, Rice has little value on 3rd and long since he doesn't catch well and he's not a good blocker. Cj can be utilized effectively for matchup problems at RB and split out wide.

    And BTW, very few RB's get thrown the ball to split out wide. The reason is NOT because they can't run patterns or can't catch, it's because they are split out to create a mismatch. For example. Suppose you're in a 3 WR set with Jones and Crumpler to the left. Suddenly, CJ goes in motion to the left to the far outside putting Jones into a slot position. Does the CB over Jones bump out to take the widest man (most teams) creating multiple mismatches...we now get a LB or S on our WR and probably force some kind of stacked zone to that side cuz most teams can't cover a WR and a TE with LB's or S's. This would likely give us better options to the right side (with possible single coverage on both with a single S in the deep middle) as the safeties and LB's will slide the opposite way.

    Or suppose a LB or S bumps out. If its a LB, we know CJ can toast him on the outside or running a WR screen would remove that LB from the box and improve our blocking. If a S bumps out they will now have only 1 deep defender vs potentialy 5 receivers. Tha leaves us with 2 WR's to the right vs CB and a single middle S, Crumpler vs a LB (I like), CJ on a fly vs a slower S (if S is off a 5 yd hitch or in route would work very well) or crossing route vs man coverage.

    Most of the time, we a Westbrook or Bush split out, a CB or S goes too...giving us other good matchups. Which is the point. Most of the balls CJ will catch will be swing passes, screens, middle dumpoffs, and hopefully WR screens (or bubble screens). While this might deflate his overall YPC a bit, Young won't be throwing the ball far so we'll have a better chance at getting decent yardage.

    Gut
  3. The Playmaker pineapple pizza party

    Brown
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    All Young has to do is deliver the ball to his recievers. He has Crumpler, CJ, J-Mac, R. Williams, and J. Gage. If Young can just complete his passes we'll continue to get 1st downs. Especially with CJ though, send him on a flat route and he could take off down the field for a TD. He may never develop into a true starter but he already has immense value for the team.
  4. RollTide Pro Bowler

    Bishop
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    Your scenario is weak and you like the other posters don't understand. If it is 3rd and 8 or longer and we are in a 3 Wr set with CJ at RB teams will be in a dime set because they won't care about the run. Either the FS or CB would cover CJ in that set and he won't succeed against them especially a corner.

    Using CJ that way is a waste. Teams may even have a backup corner following him around like we did in 99 with steve jackson covering faulk.

    We drafted this guy for what he can do with a football under his arm but you and so many others want to line him out wide and play him at a position he doesn't know and has never played. WTF! If he lines up in a normal offensive package vince can just hand off to him and if we did pass in that set he would get a better matchup.
  5. RollTide Pro Bowler

    Bishop
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    The kenny mayne offense.

    He's fast!


    So that means he can lineup anywhere and do anything. Zone defense? no problem. A linebacker trying to smash his face as he comes off the line into his pattern? No big deal.

    The people who are defending his talent won't even talk about chris johnson as a runner. I want someone to tell me this guy is a legit threat running the ball in our normal offense. He is a first rd pick!
  6. Alpha-Centuri Where art thou, VY?

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    Only started twice, but he was in the slot plenty of times in college (interview with Head Coach Skip Holtz- 104.5)




    Yeah RT, I don't think people are so much saying that he should be a WR, but for us to utilize him by creating mismatches by motioning out of the backfield right before the snap on certain plays. Plenty of teams do it. That is different then saying he should be our slot reciever.

    I AGREE we drafted him for what he can do with a football under his arm. We also drafted him to make our offensive game more efficient.

    Whether people think you should never draft a 3rd Down/Change of pace back in the first couple rounds is the thing. DeAngelo Williams was drafted something like 27th or 28th overall, and I haven't seen anyone up in arms over drafting him over on their forums, even though he split time with Foster. Most think he should have started anyway. Instead of comparing CJ to Canidate, maybe we can compare him to DeAngelo Williams...
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    Alex1939 Good picture of me from 10 years ago

    Wright
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    I think this is the thing...

    even if you love Chris Johnson and support the decision to draft a RB in round 1, it all but admits that last year's 2nd round pick was wasted, that, or this year's first round pick is wasted. Either way, the GM has wasted this year's first round pick, or last year's second round pick, which is a bad track record, especially considering we have other areas of need.

    I think that's what most people are pissed about. I think Chris Johnson will be way better than Chris Henry, but I also thought Chris Henry could've carried the #2RB load this year, or at least I would've liked to see if he could have.

    Hopefully CJ is so amazing that everyone will have to say, "yeah, the Titans knew what they were doing and did the right thing." I'm hopeful, but not optimistic. Will chris johnson seperate himself, by a longshot, over those similar style RBs taken after him? ... we shall see.
  7. The Playmaker pineapple pizza party

    Brown
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    Chris Johnson is a RB who can be lined up as a WR. Just to clear that up. Some thought up that CJ could play WR and then others dissapproved of the idea. Just to catch everyone up including myself. Did I miss anything because I'm tired and yet bored and ebay is about to become my best friend.:sleepy:
  8. Gut Starter

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    Tide...

    Never played? As in he's never been split out as a RB before? I think you are incorrect.

    But you are amusing. I write a rebuttal to a point you made (that no RB is effective split out wide) and you say...why can't he run the ball! LOL!!!

    And my scenario is 'weak'? Let's revisit my scenario which is obviosly weak and plug in YOUR variables. First, if they are in the dime, NO WAY a FS is covering CJ on the outside (with our 3 wr, 1 te, 1 rb formation). If they do put a FS on him...he can beat him since he'll be MUCH faster AND it creates better matchups downfield. Only way a FS is on top of him is as a deep 3 or 4 defender. As you saw in our playoff game against SD, a 10-15 yard out is very effective on the outside once you get the deep defender running towards his endzone. And with CJ's speed...

    An even easier scenario is a FS on top and run a WR screen (to CJ) vs a dime set. The slot WR blocks down on the FS, the TE (whoms Im supposing is covered by a CB) will get obliterated and with a pulling OG/OT...should net huge yards. CJ could almost ride the back of the OL for 5 yards and run to daylight. And young only has to throw the ball about 10 yards and read nothing once the ball is snapped.

    The Pats used this play extremely effectively as have other teams.

    And no one but you said he can't run. In fact, I'd be quite happy if everytime the Titans give White a breather and bring in CJ, they have at least 3 wr's on the field. If a team goes nickel, we have at least 2 advantages in personell (CJ vs a LB or S split or not and crumpler vs a LB...if they drop a S down...it favors our other wr's who will be able to attack the deep zone and potentially allow CJ deep on a wheel route). If they go Dime to be able to cover everyone (I doubt this would happen except for 3rd and long or if the Titans are way behind until Young proves he can start lighting up teams through the air)...CJ will have a much easier time running the ball as we'll have 5 OL and a TE to block 4 DL and a LB. If the D drops a S down to 'even' things up (it still an advantage for us as Young can run too) we'll have a running AND passing advantage and be able to effectively take what the defense gives us.

    Not to take too much of a tangent into the Run and Shoot...but the principle is similar. In the RnS the offense has 4 WR's and a RB. If the D has 5 in the box (and 6 pass defenders vs 4 WR's), you run because you have a blocker for every defender (and the offense can do even better if the QB can run the option). If there are 6 in the box vs 5 OL...you pass because you have 4 WR's across the field defended by 5 guys. 2-3 or more should be singled covered or be very open against zone coverage.

    I know Fisher will want to give a healthy dose of White and pound the rock, but I would also not only use CJ in a 3wr 1 te 1 rb spread set (and start with CJ lined wide to see how the defense will matchup), but I would use it in a hurry up mode to keep a certain d on the field. Suppose on 3rd and long, we have our CJ set and they have a dime D...if we get the first down, stay in hurry up and keep the dime d on the field...then you can start running against them with an advantage in personell. Or if they come out in nickel, we should be able to pass very effectively against them and keep it going.

    Lots of options waiting for a creative and aggressive coordinator to work his magic.

    As you know, I would not have taken CJ in rnd 1 unless we had traded down and gotten extra value. But I hope he can certainly run and catch well and be the explosive homerun hitter we need. We'll find out soon enough!

    If he can run well, I expect you'll be singing a new tune. If not, I'm sure you'll be talking about the great Ray Rice with regularity.

    More importantly, lets hope CJ is closer to our hope than to our fear!

    Gut
  9. Soxcat Starter

    Britt
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    The only way RollTides doom and gloom makes any sense is if CJ can't produce enough running the ball. I don't think CJ will be that much of a liability as a pure RB. I do think it is obvious he might not be able to take the beating of running the ball 30 times a game but if he is on the field and the defense is in a dime I believe he can take a handoff and do some damage. I remember how well Dinger used Brown on delays and draws and if CJ gets the same kind of holes Brown had he will like Brown be able to exploit them and with his speed break some long runs.
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