A decent ESPN Vince article

Discussion in 'Tennessee Titans and NFL Talk' started by TitanJeff, Dec 19, 2007.

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  1. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    #1
  2. Deuce Wayne

    Deuce Wayne Damnit, I cant find my driving moccasins anywhere!

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    I dont think the defenses are taking away the run. When he tucks and runs, he does it well. He's just so hesitant that he waits for them to all come get him by doing that lame side-step motion.
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  3. Vince10

    Vince10 Camp Fodder

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    He has been gimpy for most of the year, aside from the quad injury. I noticed this even before he went down against Tampa. He is still a pretty fast runner, but he is nowhere near full speed. Another reason he is hesitant, IMO, is he is looking downfield b/c he does not want to run, get hit, and aggravate whatever is ailing him. He was limping noticeably against KC.
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  4. eberry

    eberry Camp Fodder

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    I thought it was pretty clear that the quad has drastically reduced his rushing and prevented him (if only in his mind) from breaking tackles and juking defenders. Add to that his ambition of becoming a better passer and that's what's happened (and probably hampered his passing as well, as he is reluctant to run on 3rd downs and forces the ball).
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  5. LT21Titans27

    LT21Titans27 Tebow Apostle

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    Its a good read, i think some of the problem is that Chow doesnt want to see him running every play, because then he may miss a big passing play, thats why envin I think VY should look to pass first, hes learning, and doing well, lets remember the "3 Year" development of a qb!!
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  6. Nine

    Nine Starter

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    Actually, defenses have altered their approach to some extent.

    Last year, much of Vince's success came on plays where the DE's overcommitted to an outside speed rush and got too deep, allowing Vince to step up and shoot the gap underneath them.

    This year, opposing DE's are being a bit more conservative. No longer are DE's rushing 8-10 yards deep, creating wide gaps between guard and tackle. Instead of a hell-bent speed rush, they're rushing maybe 5-7 yards up the field and holding that position; this not only keeps the pocket closed, but it also keeps them in position to pursue if Vince tries to roll out of the pocket.

    FWIW, this approach was developed at the end of last year by the Jags, with the Patriots following suit, and both teams did a good job of limiting Vince's rushing opportunities. (Aside from the one long TD against the Pats, Vince was largely ineffective in both games). It only makes sense that other teams would watch film on those games and follow suit.
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  7. Vince10

    Vince10 Camp Fodder

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    I don't deny being a Vince homer, and believe me, I have been as disappointed as anyone that this year has not been more exciting. But there are reasons to hope - many of the flaws are very correctable. Everyone knows our receivers have issues getting open and catching the ball, and Vince can try too hard and get himself picked off. The latter won't change much - it has always been his way. Favre and Marino (though different types of players) were the same. But better receivers, whether by experience or roster changes, will let fewer of those 1-on-1 deep balls get picked, grabbing them themselves or batting them away. Frankly our guys often get outpositioned, and then *try to play the ball*, while the DB, in superior position, can go up and catch it without anyone being the "DB." A combination of only slightly better routes and only slightly better ball placement would eliminate almost half of this year's picks.

    Defenses have known all along that Vince is a running threat. I saw plenty of contain last year by D-linemen, spies, etc. The biggest differences in his running game this year are: 1) defenses know how strong and shifty he is. It is REALLY hard to tell on tape, because he looks so thin and has loping strides. In person, it always surprises you. And 2) He has been hurt. The quad injury was the big one, but nagging injuries before and after it have been evident to anyone who knows how he usually moves. He will still be a threat running the ball, unless defenses commit to never ever dropping their safeties or LBs deep. That is unthinkable against an offense with any skill position talent at all.

    As I said above, I think his preference to throw is partly due to the coaches (and critics) getting in his ear and partly due to not wanting to aggravate the injuries and spend more time on the bench. It is frustrating, because often the receivers he throws to are not in better position to advance the ball than he is. I have never before this season seen him dump off the ball in that situation, or slide before the first down. It probably has not happened in his life. The good news in all of this is that, with health, his full running game will return. He just needs to remember how to utilize it: make backside persuit hesitate on running plans, and convert 3rd down to keep the drive alive. Occasional homeruns are gravy.

    The truth of the matter is that it is impossible for defenses fully to take away the running threat from a QB who can throw accurately to average (or better) receivers. You can take away the deep ball if you are good enough, or the opposing skill positions are bad enough - you can make them plod. But there aren't enough defenders on the field to cover everyone within the first 10 yards. John Elway, a decent but not great runner, could trot for at least 7 yards on ANY play, even 4th down with all the chips on the table.

    If we had average receivers (we don't) and a solid running game (getting there), we could move the chains on *anyone* and hope to win big games by shortening them and playing good defense, special teams, and getting the occasional lucky bounce. Get those things and add a WR who can stretch the field and semi-regularly de-pants DBs one-on-one, and I believe we can win titles.

    Vince is not the kind of guy who will put a ball on the bullseye 40 yards downfield. Most of the time our guys cant get open enough for him to try. If we had just one guy who could go up and make a play, a defense based on packing the first 10 yards and keep everything in front of you will fall like a deck of cards.

    I only wonder if Fisher will realize how safe and almost Fisher-like letting Vince sit in the shotgun, scramble, and dump the ball off can be. As consistent and effective as handing it off in the I, but less predictable.
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  8. TitanJeff

    TitanJeff Kahuna Grande Staff

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    Some good posts here.

    Bottom line for me is that he has to be able to burn defenses with his arm in order to be more effective scrambling. If DEs are not getting upfield fast to contain him, then that gives Roos/Stewart that much better an opportunity to give Young time to read defenses and make the pass.

    He hits a few of those and the DEs go back to wanting to get to him which means lanes open up for him to run.

    Where I think he is at his best is with that little rollout 10-yarder to the TE. McNair had a similar play where he would roll to his right and force the LB to either commit to coming up to stop him or continue covering the TE. That play is almost unstoppable.

    Maybe Chow/Fisher thinks he'd take too much punishment if he rolled out every snap from shotgun but I think he's at his best when he does. And it creates the misdirection runs which also appears to be when White/Brown is able to break off longer carries.
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  9. Smash

    Smash Soccer God

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    That's my favorite Madden play. If it works in madden, in works IRL:ha:
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  10. eberry

    eberry Camp Fodder

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    I think all of us will agree that he cannot be what Vick was because it simply will not work [it's like 8 on 11 with WR's and TE's not really playing]. But I also think it seems pretty obvious that he idolizes players like McNair and McNabb, not Vick--and that he desperately wants to be a good passer. And that this seems to have become his sole focus has got be a positive for those on both sides of the fence. Whether you think he's going to be something or not, you've got to admit that he's desperately trying to get better.

    I personally think this year will in the end be beneficial to him. I think Vince can be a solid but not HOF player (like McNair) with a touch for clutch plays, and a year like this, where he's had more and more attempts, been humbled by costly interceptions and drops, but has in the background raised his completion percentage while not being able to run as much, will in a weird way better serve his future than last year, where his passing was actually worse but he got so much acclaim for running.
    #10
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